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Is underage drinking wrong?
Yes, God says it's wrong 7%  7%  [ 4 ]
Yes, it's against the law 43%  43%  [ 25 ]
Maybe, but I don't care 22%  22%  [ 13 ]
No 28%  28%  [ 16 ]
Total votes : 58
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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:01 pm 
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I think what you're really saying is, "have as much fun as you can, because you'll regret it in the end if you don't." If so, I wholeheartedly agree, ha.


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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:05 am 
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boc120 wrote:
I do not think that underage drinking should be illegal. Nor do I think that it is immoral. Perhaps it is because of my own high level of wisdom when partaking, but I am also generally big into personal responsibility. Instead of blanketing everyone with a law, it should be based on the individual's ability to drink and think in a responsible way. It would be much better to have a test of practical application. This would reward intelligent and wise people and ban the people who aren't mature or are just plain foolish regardless of age. There are young people that are very mature and plenty of older people who are never mature enough to be trusted with alcohol (among other things). While testing may not be feasible in a practical sense, this thread appears to be more about theoretics anyway. One's morality should not be influenced by what the law happens to say. There are many immoral laws, now and in the past. "Because the law says so" is never a good reason to do or not do things. The law's function is to tell us what will happen to us if we proceed to do the prohibited thing. If one is willing to take responsibility and that punishment if he is caught, then the law's power is broken.

Wow, I was actually agreeing with this post until I read this sentance.

The law's function really is (or should be) to protect people's rights, protect them from themselves and others. You can't just say "some laws are immoral, so you can break any law if you can accept the punishment".
The most fundamental laws are based on simple morality. So it should be considered a moral act for someone to follow the law - and usually it is.

There are only a few very specefic cases where I would consider breking or getting around the law, and drinking is one of those cases where I am confused about it. That's why I started this thread. But I am now more inclined towards drinking (responsibly) regardless of what the law says. I certainly don't think like this about every law though.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:43 am 
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But what does underage drinking have to do with "fundamental morality?" What the hell is "fundamental morality" anyway?


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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:46 am 
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When did I ever say "fundamental morality"? That doesn't mean anything.

I guess what I was trying to say is: The most important laws are based on morals, and protecting people's rights. I wouldn't break those laws because of my own morals.

Laws that are minor, and in my opinion useless, that's another story. That's where drinking comes in.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:14 pm 
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My mistake. Sorry for skimming that last post. When you said "simple morality," I thought you said "fundamental morality." My question still kinda stands. Just replace "fundamental" with "simple."

Quote:
You can't just say "some laws are immoral, so you can break any law if you can accept the punishment".
The most fundamental laws are based on simple morality. So it should be considered a moral act for someone to follow the law - and usually it is.

I feel kinda weird about universal morals, but I still think Martin Luther King Jr. has a good reply to that bit.

"One may well ask: 'How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?' The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that 'an unjust law is no law at all.'

Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine whether a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law. Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust."

Prohibition of alcohol to young people is most degrading to human personality, and I would use the example of European countries having more lax alcoholic laws, and seemingly having less of an issue with underage drinking. If kids learn to drink responsibly at younger ages, whether through easing into moderate drinking, or even screwing up big time and learning why getting utterly crap is bad, then it will become less of problem as they age, and will be responsible as adults. I think it's a lot better for people to screw up at 16 than 21. Honestly, how much do you really learn from someone indirectly telling how something is, or when you directly learn for yourself from experience? In the end, it's only the things you do that are real, that are important.


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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:26 am 
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I have to disagree with MLK Jr. there, Mikes!. Yes, there are just laws and unjust laws, but the vast majority of laws are in-between, in the gray area. I have to say that I think underage drinking laws fall in this area. It's not inherently unjust to prevent people who are under a certain age from drinking, but neither is it necessarily the "right thing to do". Rebellion against laws should only happen if you're sure the law is unjust, not if it's just a matter of you not liking them.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:37 am 
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We're talking specifics here, though. Why follow a law which is not designed to truly protect people, but to just control minor ethical decisions? Tonight I broke that law, and no intrinsic (as in, the alcohol did me no wrong) negative consequence to me has yet occurred, and nor will it probably happen. This law has been rendered irrelevant because of my self-control and lack of any victims.


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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:07 pm 
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What state do you live in? First of all, if you did it in a private setting, it may have been legal, depending on the state. Also, we know that it's possible to break a law without hurting anyone. If you drive 120mph down the highway and don't crash, you didn't hurt anyone. The speed limit is still there to protect you, even if it doesn't protect you in every case.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:48 pm 
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ed 'lim' smilde wrote:
Also, we know that it's possible to break a law without hurting anyone. If you drive 120mph down the highway and don't crash, you didn't hurt anyone. The speed limit is still there to protect you, even if it doesn't protect you in every case.


The problem with that example is that, by speeding, you pose a danger to others, not merely yourself. I think we can all agree that posing a danger to others is a problem whether or not something comes of it in a particular instance. After all, even if you win after putting all your money on red at the roulette table, that doesn't mean that doing it was a good idea. So the results are irrelevant; it's the potential that's at issue.

- Kef

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:42 pm 
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furrykef wrote:
The problem with that example is that, by speeding, you pose a danger to others, not merely yourself.
Okay... crappy example. But if you were the only car on the road, you would be putting yourself in great danger.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:52 am 
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The major difference was that I had two cans of PBR with some friends while working on a screenplay, and I wasn't driving a car at 120 miles per hour. You can't apply that sort of syllogism.


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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:39 am 
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Well, they're both situations that are dangerous (your situation probably being less dangerous), and even though you might not have harmed yourself, you put yourself at risk.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:54 am 
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I reiterate: two beers in the safe environment of my friends' apartment is nothing to compared to reckless driving.


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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:48 pm 
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ed 'lim' smilde wrote:
Well, they're both situations that are dangerous (your situation probably being less dangerous), and even though you might not have harmed yourself, you put yourself at risk.


I was debating with DV Tape earlier and I was reading all of the fallacies to try to catch him on one (I should've called the negative proof fallacy on him) so a couple are fresh in my mind. I'm pretty sure you're tripping over the proof by example fallacy and appeal to probability fallacy.


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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:45 pm 
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I'm not really trying to prove, though that, that underage drinking is wrong though. My main point was that just because a law doesn't protect people in every circumstance doesn't mean it's useless in those circumstances, except I did a horrible job of explaining it. Kef's roulette example says what I mean, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:31 pm 
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I just don't understand what purpose you're serving by defending this law other spouting a belief that all laws must be followed, which is a pretty weak argument. Laws are not universal and permanent. They are designed to be able to be repealed and changed when they do not serve the constituency in an effective manner. And think of it this way: the prohibition to people under 21 is a major problem because it puts forth the notion that a person is not mature enough to imbue alcohol until three years he or she gains full legal and citizenship rights and responsibilities. I can't think of many claims to counter that voting, serving jury duty, and having economic independence requires a lot more maturity than drinking a beer.


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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:24 pm 
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Mikes! wrote:
I can't think of many claims to counter that voting, serving jury duty, and having economic independence requires a lot more maturity than drinking a beer.
Well, like I said before, it's also about how developed one's brain is. Alcohol affects younger people much more. I posted a link to a study a few posts back.
Second of all, you can't vote irresponsibly... and if you can, it's not gonna do much.
With jury duty, potential jurors are interviewed to see if they have the ability to even make a decision... if they find you're racist or something, they won't let you in.
Then, imagine if people could drink at 18... high schoolers could drink, so pretty much every high school party would have beer with a bunch of legal drinkers. Then all of their friends, who may even be in the same grade but not 18 yet, will feel there's nothing wrong with drinking either. And it could much more easily spread throughout the rest of the high school, and maybe to any younger siblings, who are still likely living with the kid since he's only 18. It would only increase the already too-high number of high schoolers drinking illegally.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:46 pm 
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ed 'lim' smilde wrote:
Then, imagine if people could drink at 18... high schoolers could drink, so pretty much every high school party would have beer with a bunch of legal drinkers. Then all of their friends, who may even be in the same grade but not 18 yet, will feel there's nothing wrong with drinking either. And it could much more easily spread throughout the rest of the high school, and maybe to any younger siblings, who are still likely living with the kid since he's only 18. It would only increase the already too-high number of high schoolers drinking illegally.

Wow. You just described my situation exactly. When I was at school I went to heaps of parties from yr 11 onwards where everyone else was drinking, most of them legal. I finished school when I had just turned 17 and legally I still couldn't drink. Now that's not fair.
But it was a Christian school and most people were Christians, so we were all very responsible and nothing bad happened. Beer just made things more fun. I don't see any problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:17 am 
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Underage drinking is most definitely wrong. Even if you aren't trying to get drunk, most young people don't know their limits. They'll get tipsy without even realizing it.

Then there's also the point of it being illegal. Breaking the law is sinful; end of story. Unless a law contradicts a command in the Bible, it is to be followed without question.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:26 am 
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Strong Josh wrote:
Underage drinking is most definitely wrong. Even if you aren't trying to get drunk, most young people don't know their limits. They'll get tipsy without even realizing it.

Then there's also the point of it being illegal. Breaking the law is sinful; end of story. Unless a law contradicts a command in the Bible, it is to be followed without question.

That, of course, only applies to those who follow the Bible. A lot of people do, but a lot of people don't.

In general, citing one's religion in the R&P section of this forum, unless the thread is about religion, is not a good practice if one wants to be taken seriously.

With that said, I honestly don't see a problem with males drinking at the age of 18. If you can be called up to die for your country, you should be allowed to have a beer.

One of the Mikes hit the nail on the head with responsibility. Responsibility does not know an age.
Unfortunately, you cannot (constitutionally) test responsibility, nor can you regulate based on it.
21 was just the number they picked because they felt that most people that were 21 or older were responsible enough to handle their own lives.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:42 am 
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StrongRad wrote:
In general, citing one's religion in the R&P section of this forum, unless the thread is about religion, is not a good practice if one wants to be taken seriously.
I don't see why I shouldn't. If I wasn't a Christian I would have no moral dilemma with underage drinking, though it would be more of a problem for me as I might be less responsible.

Strong Josh wrote:
Then there's also the point of it being illegal. Breaking the law is sinful; end of story. Unless a law contradicts a command in the Bible, it is to be followed without question.
I think I've already addressed this point earlier. Paul wrote in one of his letters that Christians should obey the law of society, so as to show others they are upright members of society, but the law of God should come first.
I think in today's society, things are different. There are some laws that everyone breaks, it is no longer seen as immoral to break them. I think Christians shouldn't be bound by human laws any more than anyone else. I just stick to my morals and my limits, based on God's law and I think that's all He would want.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:00 am 
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Biscuithead wrote:
StrongRad wrote:
In general, citing one's religion in the R&P section of this forum, unless the thread is about religion, is not a good practice if one wants to be taken seriously.
I don't see why I shouldn't. If I wasn't a Christian I would have no moral dilemma with underage drinking, though it would be more of a problem for me as I might be less responsible.

Fair enough. Mentioning your religion is pretty good for people to see where you're coming from. However, saying something is wrong and you know it's wrong because the Bible says so is probably not going to gain much in the way of understanding from non-Christians.

Biscuithead wrote:
Strong Josh wrote:
Then there's also the point of it being illegal. Breaking the law is sinful; end of story. Unless a law contradicts a command in the Bible, it is to be followed without question.
I think I've already addressed this point earlier. Paul wrote in one of his letters that Christians should obey the law of society, so as to show others they are upright members of society, but the law of God should come first.
I think in today's society, things are different. There are some laws that everyone breaks, it is no longer seen as immoral to break them. I think Christians shouldn't be bound by human laws any more than anyone else. I just stick to my morals and my limits, based on God's law and I think that's all He would want.

I'm a little lost here.
Speeding is against the law, but it's not a law that too many people feel bad about breaking. Are you saying it's a slight against God to speed since you're not obeying the laws of man or are you saying that some laws are OK to break because everyone breaks them.
I'm confused here.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:09 am 
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StrongRad wrote:
Biscuithead wrote:
I think I've already addressed this point earlier. Paul wrote in one of his letters that Christians should obey the law of society, so as to show others they are upright members of society, but the law of God should come first.
I think in today's society, things are different. There are some laws that everyone breaks, it is no longer seen as immoral to break them. I think Christians shouldn't be bound by human laws any more than anyone else. I just stick to my morals and my limits, based on God's law and I think that's all He would want.

I'm a little lost here.
Speeding is against the law, but it's not a law that too many people feel bad about breaking. Are you saying it's a slight against God to speed since you're not obeying the laws of man or are you saying that some laws are OK to break because everyone breaks them.
I'm confused here.
Ok, that is a little confusing. I sort of meant the second option there.

What I really meant was: the only reason Christians are bound to obey human laws is to act morally and to fit in with society. If you can still do both of those things while disobeying a law, I would say that's alright.

This is just my opinion, and my interpretation. I could well be wrong here.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:59 am 
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It almost sounds like you're saying that some laws can be broken and some can't, depending on whether or not people think there's something wrong with breaking it.

A lot of people have no problem with breaking the law regarding drinking age. By that logic (if it's what you're saying) there's nothing biblically wrong with underage drinking.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:26 pm 
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Fitting in with society is exactly what Christians are expected NOT to do.

Society is filled with immorality, sex, drugs, drinking, cursing, and all things sinful. "Fitting in" with society leads to damnation.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:46 am 
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I know there is a verse somewhere in the Bible saying that a Christian will behave differently around different groups of non-believers to be accepted by them so as to potentially be able to minister the gospel to them more effectively. I just skimmed over the epistles but I couldn't find the actual verse.

Anyway, I think in a modern context this means we should act like others in society so long as we don't break God's laws. Drinking is perfect, a good bonding experience with mates, while (in my opinion) not opposing what God wants. Who knows, it might lead to bringing them to God. Even if doesn't I still think it's ok.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:57 am 
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Jesus turned water into wine. That right there tells me that God is not opposed to drinking.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:56 am 
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Strong Josh wrote:
Fitting in with society is exactly what Christians are expected NOT to do.

Society is filled with immorality, sex, drugs, drinking, cursing, and all things sinful. "Fitting in" with society leads to damnation.

Sex is not immoral. In fact, it's fairly important to the continuation of our society, and an ultimate expression of love.
Fornication, on the other hand...

Drinking is also not immoral. Being a drunkard, is a different story, but there is NOTHING sinful about having a couple beers or a glass of wine.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:45 pm 
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Strong Josh wrote:
Society is filled with immorality, sex, drugs, drinking, cursing, and all things sinful. "Fitting in" with society leads to damnation.

"If we can resist our passions, 'tis more from the weakness of them than our own virtues." - Joan d'Arc

I'm just saying.


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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:32 am 
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Biscuithead, this may be the verse you're looking for. In I Corinthians 9:19-22, Paul says, "Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible...I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some." He isn't saying exactly the same thing as you are (I think he'd only encourage "behaving like others in society" insofar as it provides opportunities to communicate the gospel), but it is pretty close.

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