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 Post subject: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 6:40 am 
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A recent order from the Vatican prevents the release of parish records to the LDS Church.

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CNS reported the Vatican had "grave reservations" about the LDS Church's practice of posthumous baptisms by proxy, a practice in which the names of the deceased are baptized into the LDS faith so that they may be united in the afterlife with LDS families, if they so choose.



As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I feel the need to comment on this issue.

"Posthumous baptisms by proxy" is called "baptisms for the dead" within the LDS faith. The definition given above is accurate, but I've run across a lot of confusion about the practice.

We believe everyone needs to be baptized to return to live with God. Jesus taught, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)

Many of God's children have been born and died without ever having the opportunity to hear about Jesus, let alone be baptized. In God's mercy, He gives everyone a chance to do both.

After death, those who have not heard about Jesus or been baptized will be taught the gospel and then given the choice as to whether they want to accept Him and baptism or not. Because after death we don't have bodies, those individuals who want to be baptized after they die cannot receive the ordinance themselves.

That's where baptism for the dead comes in. Members of the LDS church can be baptized in proxy for those who have already passed on. Those who accept this baptism receive all the blessings that come from that, and can return to live with God.

Thos who don't accept Christ or baptism are not required to do so. Freedom to choose is sacred.

Now, here's where I don't get what the Catholic church is doing.

Why bring it up now? Baptism for the dead has been going on for over 150 years. LDS church members have been using Catholic parish records for this practice for almost as long. Suddenly it is offensive to Catholics?

Where's the harm? The Catholic church obviously doesn't believe baptism for the dead has any efficacy. For them to have "grave reservations" about what we're doing makes no sense unless they think baptisms for the dead actually mean something in the afterlife.

This isn't about adding to our membership numbers. Official records of the LDS church never count dead individuals as part of the living membership.

If someone wanted to make my great-great-grandpa a Wiccan or Muslim by performing some kind of ritual, this wouldn't bother me in the least. In my opinion, such a ritual would make no difference in my great-great-grandfather's eternal salvation.

So I don't get it. And to a lot of LDS church members with Catholic ancestors, this is a major problem. They want to be the ones to help their family members have this opportunity to be baptized. And the Catholic church is preventing them from doing that.

Today is not a good day in Mormon/Catholic relations.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:20 pm 
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I'm sorry, but I don't really see why they needed to do this. I mean, doesn't this put a huge dent in any genealogical efforts? Not just for Mormons in our Baptisms for the dead, but just for anyone who would like to find out who their great-great-great somebody is. What was the reason for doing this?

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:47 pm 
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oh no he didn't wrote:
If someone wanted to make my great-great-grandpa a Wiccan or Muslim by performing some kind of ritual, this wouldn't bother me in the least. In my opinion, such a ritual would make no difference in my great-great-grandfather's eternal salvation.


I have to disagree with this. It takes away the free will of your loved ones. How would you know what they would want after their death? Unless I specified in my last Will and Testament that I wanted this done, I would not approve of being Baptized into just 'any faith' after I died. It would bother me, as well as a lot of people.

The Catholic people promote free will(hypocritically in some cases), so I can see why they'd have a beef with this. As for the "why now", I'm sure somebody probably just brought it up in a meeting somewhere... "Hey, look, something new to complain about!"

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:16 pm 
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Uh, Faceless, if you're going to quote me, how about you treat me with a little respect?

TheFacelessEvil wrote:
I have to disagree with this. It takes away the free will of your loved ones. How would you know what they would want after their death? Unless I specified in my last Will and Testament that I wanted this done, I would not approve of being Baptized into just 'any faith' after I died. It would bother me, as well as a lot of people.


The practice of baptism for the dead in no way whatsoever affects the free will of anyone. Did you even read my post? I know it was long, but I don't think it's too much to ask for you to read the whole thing before responding.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:57 pm 
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lahimatoa wrote:
Uh, Faceless, if you're going to quote me, how about you treat me with a little respect?

The practice of baptism for the dead in no way whatsoever affects the free will of anyone. Did you even read my post? I know it was long, but I don't think it's too much to ask for you to read the whole thing before responding.


Disagreeing with you isn't disrespectful. Get over yourself.

Yes, I read the entire post. Who's disrespecting who now? You assume that I don't "get" your point? I certainly do, and I disagree with it. I do believe that having someone baptized after they are dead still DOES effect the free will of a person, and I can understand why the Catholic faith is against it.

Further edit: Again, it's what I believe, hence it's my opinion, and if you don't like it then that's just tough cookies. Don't assume that just because I have a differing opinion means I didn't read your post/must be disrespecting you. If you don't want different thoughts on the matter, then don't post it in a public forum.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 7:16 pm 
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To be fair, I think it was the "oh no he didn't" thing he was referring to as disrespect.

Um, I am Catholic, therefore I agree with the Catholics. Carry on. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 7:21 pm 
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Jitka wrote:
To be fair, I think it was the "oh no he didn't" thing he was referring to as disrespect.

Um, I am Catholic, therefore I agree with the Catholics. Carry on. :)


That isn't disrespectful. It's a shocking exclamation of "I can't believe he said that!" If that's disrespectful, then paint me green and call me Nebulon for all I care.

I'm not Catholic, I used to be, but I agree with them also. I don't think my soul can handle the idea that I'll be baptized into the Church of Wiggomophlotion in the year 2160. Call me self centered...

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 7:39 pm 
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Faceless, you fail to articulate exactly how this practice affects anyone in the hereafter.

Here's my point:

lahimatoa wrote:
Where's the harm? The Catholic church obviously doesn't believe baptism for the dead has any efficacy. For them to have "grave reservations" about what we're doing makes no sense unless they think baptisms for the dead actually mean something in the afterlife.


I'm looking for a response to this.

It seems you believe that Mormon baptism for the dead has power in the afterlife.

Do you?

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:09 pm 
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lahimatoa wrote:
Faceless, you fail to articulate exactly how this practice affects anyone in the hereafter.

What? You mean with hard facts? If that's the proof you want - Prove there even is a God. It's my belief, just as people put their belief in a God. Or anything that can't be explained by physical science for that matter...

lahimatoa wrote:
Where's the harm? The Catholic church obviously doesn't believe baptism for the dead has any efficacy. For them to have "grave reservations" about what we're doing makes no sense unless they think baptisms for the dead actually mean something in the afterlife.
***
I'm looking for a response to this.

It seems you believe that Mormon baptism for the dead has power in the afterlife.

Do you?

Yes, I do. I thought that was abundantly clear. Oh, and any baptism of any sort - Not just exclusively to Mormon ritual. I think it's disrespectful to the dead, who cannot make their choices anymore. Leave them be, in my opinion.

EDIT: Keep in mind, I'm not putting down faiths that WANT to do it, it's their choice, but I don't support it.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:20 pm 
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Quote:
Yes, I do. I thought that was abundantly clear. Oh, and any baptism of any sort - Not just exclusively to Mormon ritual.


Follow this line of reasoning:

What gives baptism its power?

I believe baptism only has an effect on us if God says it does.

I also believe baptism is 100% about personal choice. God will force no one to be baptized or accept Christ or go to church.

Now, why would God give His authority to a baptism you didn't choose? If you die, and someone is baptized in proxy for you, why would God force you to accept that baptism and make you be a Mormon or Presbyterian or Methodist if you didn't want it?

That doesn't make sense.

In baptism for the dead, those who are dead have 100% say on whether they want to accept the baptism or not. It doesn't logically follow that it would work any other way.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:24 pm 
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lahimatoa wrote:
Quote:
Yes, I do. I thought that was abundantly clear. Oh, and any baptism of any sort - Not just exclusively to Mormon ritual.


Follow this line of reasoning:

What gives baptism its power?

I believe baptism only has an effect on us if God says it does.

I also believe baptism is 100% about personal choice. God will force no one to be baptized or accept Christ or go to church.

Now, why would God give His authority to a baptism you didn't choose? If you die, and someone is baptized in proxy for you, why would God force you to accept that baptism and make you be a Mormon or Presbyterian or Methodist if you didn't want it?

That doesn't make sense.

In baptism for the dead, those who are dead have 100% say on whether they want to accept the baptism or not. It doesn't logically follow that it would work any other way.


You are totally, completely, 100% right.

However, since I'm an Atheist there's an entirely different power to it, for me. A violation of my humanly/physical/spiritual(not religious) choices to NOT be baptized into certain faiths.

In all honestly, my dead remains would probably laugh it off, but I support people who think that we just shouldn't do it in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:26 pm 
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Okay Faceless, would you just listen to yourself? You are saying that those that have passed don't have a choice to do anything in heaven. Eh' what? So in your eyes, we die, and go to heaven where we sit around and do nothing?

Also, if you believe that baptisms for the dead do have an effect then why are you against it? The only way back to God is through baptism. So why would you have a problem with us helping them return to God?

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:28 pm 
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TheFacelessEvil wrote:

You are totally, completely, 100% right.

However, since I'm an Atheist there's an entirely different power to it, for me. A violation of my humanly/physical/spiritual(not religious) choices to NOT be baptized into certain faiths.

In all honestly, my dead remains would probably laugh it off, but I support people who think that we just shouldn't do it in the first place.


Ah, I didn't know you were an atheist. I would have used a completely different argument if I'd known.

In regards to "a violation of my choices to NOT be baptized..."

It's not like you'd be dug up. Someone else would be baptized and we'd say "this is for TheFacelessEvil."

Completely meaningless unless you think the Mormon church is true. :)

I dunno... I think this is one of those things that are offensive to some people and not offensive to others and it's hard to explain why.

And Mookoo... chill. He agreed with what I said about it being a choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:34 pm 
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MooKoo wrote:
Okay Faceless, would you just listen to yourself?


Hi Faceless. Hi. How are you today? Great, thank you!

MooKoo wrote:
You are saying that those that have passed don't have a choice to do anything in heaven. Eh' what? So in your eyes, we die, and go to heaven where we sit around and do nothing?


What? No. I don't believe in Heaven.

MooKoo wrote:
Also, if you believe that baptisms for the dead do have an effect then why are you against it? The only way back to God is through baptism. So why would you have a problem with us helping them return to God?


That's a non-issue for me, because I don't believe in God. Please read my previous post for clarification, and I hope that helps you understand my stance.

lahimatoa wrote:
It's not like you'd be dug up. Someone else would be baptized and we'd say "this is for TheFacelessEvil."


It's ok. I'm to be cremated, so that's also a non-issue. ;) But I get what you're saying.

lahimatoa wrote:
Completely meaningless unless you think the Mormon church is true.


Ultimately, yes, which is why it'd probably be easy to laugh it off. But I don't want people doing it, regardless. Now would I actively go out of my way to stop the practices? Nah... But like I said before, I will support people who don't support it.

I think I do believe, on an inner level, that all faiths have a 'power' to them. It's probably why... Not like it would EFFECT my afterlife, but more like it would effect my memory in some weird way.

You're right, it is hard to explain. I'm all like... "Don't do stuff to me when I'm dead!" is ultimately my point, but you're right on the fact of "What does it matter?" ... I just think the dead have some power, some importance in a way. They just need to be honored, without 'tampering' on any level.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 9:56 pm 
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So in your eyes, we die, and go to heaven where we sit around and do nothing?


Doing nothing is pretty much paradise.

I don't care either argument although I'll agree if somebody baptizes me into the cult of the three-headed cow in the future (probably a bad comparison) I'd be mad.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 9:58 pm 
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Also, TFE is a chick, just so you know.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 9:59 pm 
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Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
Also, TFE is a chick, just so you know.


Which means I won't get 72 virgins when I die... thought I might become eternally pregnant.

Damn these screwed up heavens...

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:12 pm 
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Well hey, you're 72 virgins in my eyes.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:13 pm 
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Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
Well hey, you're 72 virgins in my eyes.


Thanks, baby. You'll always be eternally pregnant to me too.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:44 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:58 pm 
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MooKoo wrote:
Okay Faceless, would you just listen to yourself? You are saying that those that have passed don't have a choice to do anything in heaven. Eh' what? So in your eyes, we die, and go to heaven where we sit around and do nothing?

Also, if you believe that baptisms for the dead do have an effect then why are you against it? The only way back to God is through baptism. So why would you have a problem with us helping them return to God?


I laughed.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:17 am 
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Stop spamming my thread, COLA and Rusty. If you don't have anything to contribute, I'd rather you keep out.

Quote:

I don't care either argument although I'll agree if somebody baptizes me into the cult of the three-headed cow in the future (probably a bad comparison) I'd be mad.


Why would this upset you? It would be meaningless.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:18 am 
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...doesn't that also make the mormon post-death baptism thing meaningless too?

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:24 am 
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Jitka wrote:
...doesn't that also make the mormon post-death baptism thing meaningless too?


If you don't believe the Mormon faith is true, then YES.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:25 am 
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lahimatoa wrote:
Jitka wrote:
...doesn't that also make the mormon post-death baptism thing meaningless too?


If you don't believe the Mormon faith is true, then YES.


If you already believed the Mormon faith, wouldn't you have already been baptized while you were alive?

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:26 am 
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Jitka wrote:
lahimatoa wrote:
Jitka wrote:
...doesn't that also make the mormon post-death baptism thing meaningless too?


If you don't believe the Mormon faith is true, then YES.


If you already believed the Mormon faith, wouldn't you have already been baptized while you were alive?


But that wouldn't stop your great-grandson from baptizing you again in some different weird-cow faith. Of course, your baptism is the only one that 'counts', but... The debate is whether or not doing that sucks, or if it's even supposed to be an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:29 am 
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Jitka wrote:
If you already believed the Mormon faith, wouldn't you have already been baptized while you were alive?


Did you read my initial post?

Baptism for the dead is for people who have never had the chance to be baptized into the Mormon faith.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:31 am 
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So we're not talking like 80 year olds who never got around to it, we're talking like stillborn infants?

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:35 am 
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Jitka wrote:
So we're not talking like 80 year olds who never got around to it, we're talking like stillborn infants?


Children who die before they are eight years old don't need it, according to our faith.

We're talking about people who never had the chance while they were alive. If there's an 80-year old who had the opportunity to get baptized and never wanted to, so never got around to it, odds are he won't accept it when he's dead, either.

But that's up to God.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:39 am 
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So who exactly would qualify for this, then? If I understand you, you're saying it'd be a person who has never had the chance to become a Mormon, but wants to become one, but for whatever reason can't do it, but makes it clear he WANTS to do it, but never gets the chance, so his family has him baptized after he dies?

That about it? Just trying to be clear here.

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