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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:42 am 
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Jitka wrote:
So who exactly would qualify for this, then? If I understand you, you're saying it'd be a person who has never had the chance to become a Mormon, but wants to become one, but for whatever reason can't do it, but makes it clear he WANTS to do it, but never gets the chance, so his family has him baptized after he dies?

That about it? Just trying to be clear here.


We can't communicate with the dead. So we do baptism for the dead for all of our ancestors and let them decide whether they want it or not.

These people can be your great-great grandpa, or the king of France in 1678. We think everyone deserves the chance.

Again, no one is forced to accept it. We believe many many people refuse it, and that's fine. We just want them to have the opportunity.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:46 am 
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lahimatoa wrote:
We can't communicate with the dead. So we do baptism for the dead for all of our ancestors and let them decide whether they want it or not.

These people can be your great-great grandpa, or the king of France in 1678. We think everyone deserves the chance.

Again, no one is forced to accept it. We believe many many people refuse it, and that's fine. We just want them to have the opportunity.


Which is actually kind of sweet of them.
I'm just saying that if it comes from a less-sweet faith, it's kind violating - on a strictly spiritual level. Or maybe even a physical level if they decide to take it that far.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:48 am 
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So this is like, if I'm dead in the year 8352 and my ancestors on Alpha Centauri A baptize me into the Triple Headed Cow Cult or whatever, I can be like, "No thanks, guys, I'm good,"?

Isn't a baptism supposed to be a commitment? That's why there's baptism during life, and Confirmation for Catholics. You only get one chance to decide what religion to be part of, and that's the one you're part of when you're alive. I guess as far as the Catholic Church is concerned the after-death baptisms are meaningless. It all comes down to what religion you believe in. Naturally the Catholics are going to abide by Catholic ritual and reject anything they see as being untrue.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:55 am 
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So this is like, if I'm dead in the year 8352 and my ancestors on Alpha Centauri A baptize me into the Triple Headed Cow Cult or whatever, I can be like, "No thanks, guys, I'm good,"?


Exactly.

This Triple-Headed Cow Cult sounds interesting. Can someone send me some literature?

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Isn't a baptism supposed to be a commitment?


Definitely. A big commitment.

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That's why there's baptism during life, and Confirmation for Catholics. You only get one chance to decide what religion to be part of, and that's the one you're part of when you're alive.


What if you make a mistake? Shoot, there are plenty of people who are baptized into the Mormon faith and then decide they'd rather be Catholic or Methodist or Muslim or whatever. I'd rather not people be tied to one religion based on a decision made at one time in their life.

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I guess as far as the Catholic Church is concerned the after-death baptisms are meaningless. It all comes down to what religion you believe in. Naturally the Catholics are going to abide by Catholic ritual and reject anything they see as being untrue.


And doesn't everyone reject anything they see as untrue?

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:57 am 
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lahimatoa wrote:
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I guess as far as the Catholic Church is concerned the after-death baptisms are meaningless. It all comes down to what religion you believe in. Naturally the Catholics are going to abide by Catholic ritual and reject anything they see as being untrue.


And doesn't everyone reject anything they see as untrue?


True. In the Catholic Church's case, they voice their rejection, and the media sensationalizes it as if it were a surprise, and then we have these conversations. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:59 am 
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If you make a mistake, you BURN IN HELL. We Catholics are less merciful, I guess.

I don't know if I actually believe that, but that's the official Vatican stance, I believe.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:01 am 
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TheFacelessEvil wrote:

True. In the Catholic Church's case, they voice their rejection, and the media sensationalizes it as if it were a surprise, and then we have these conversations. :)



Well,

1. They voiced their rejection 150 years after the fact and

2. Their rejection comes in the form of disallowing Mormons from researching their own ancestors in parish records.

3. I'm not sure the media is sensationalizing anything. It is a fairly surprising development. See Point 1.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:08 am 
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lahimatoa wrote:
TheFacelessEvil wrote:

True. In the Catholic Church's case, they voice their rejection, and the media sensationalizes it as if it were a surprise, and then we have these conversations. :)



Well,

1. They voiced their rejection 150 years after the fact and

2. Their rejection comes in the form of disallowing Mormons from researching their own ancestors in parish records.

3. I'm not sure the media is sensationalizing anything. It is a fairly surprising development. See Point 1.


Haha, that's very true. The new pope is probably trying to earn his hat.

Catholics are run by dorks... (no offense Catholics)

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:10 am 
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my avatar would like a word with you

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:12 am 
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Jitka wrote:
my avatar would like a word with you


Your avatar can have a word with me ANYDAY. ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:14 am 
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he would actually just probably stab you to death

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:16 am 
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Jitka wrote:
he would actually just probably stab you to death


:-(

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:52 am 
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TheFacelessEvil wrote:
Haha, that's very true. The new pope is probably trying to earn his hat.
You're right there, I've seen nothing but drama from this guy since he got into the Vatican.
I think it's a good thing that he's trying to deal with modern issues, and is not afraid to voice his beliefs. It's just a lot of people (myself included) don't agree with his beliefs.


As for the whole after death baptism thing I'm not sure what to think. I mean there is a whole lot of time between when you die and judgement day, so a person's soul has a lot of time to decide what to believe, if you want to think of it that way. But then again, time has no meaning when you're dead.
My church tells me to reject things like this, and also Catholic things such as prayers for the dead, because it's not mentioned in the bible. But the bible never says not to do it either so I think it might be ok.

The one issue I have is this: Say there are two twins. They are exactly the same in every way. Both die, both are not Mormons. One gets baptised after death and the other does not. So if you believe in Mormon teachings and whatever, would only the one who got baptised be saved?
That seems a little unfair. Salvation is supposed to depend on a person's own decisions not those of others.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:21 pm 
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Biscuithead wrote:
TheFacelessEvil wrote:
Haha, that's very true. The new pope is probably trying to earn his hat.
You're right there, I've seen nothing but drama from this guy since he got into the Vatican.
I think it's a good thing that he's trying to deal with modern issues, and is not afraid to voice his beliefs. It's just a lot of people (myself included) don't agree with his beliefs.


As for the whole after death baptism thing I'm not sure what to think. I mean there is a whole lot of time between when you die and judgement day, so a person's soul has a lot of time to decide what to believe, if you want to think of it that way. But then again, time has no meaning when you're dead.
My church tells me to reject things like this, and also Catholic things such as prayers for the dead, because it's not mentioned in the bible. But the bible never says not to do it either so I think it might be ok.

The one issue I have is this: Say there are two twins. They are exactly the same in every way. Both die, both are not Mormons. One gets baptised after death and the other does not. So if you believe in Mormon teachings and whatever, would only the one who got baptised be saved?
That seems a little unfair. Salvation is supposed to depend on a person's own decisions not those of others.

Well, we also believe that when Christ comes back to the earth for a second time. There will be a millennium of happiness, where Jesus will reign over the earth for the space of that entire millennium. And all evil will be bound, and there will be nothing but good and happiness in the land. Then, in this time period, we will take care of whoever still hasn't had their chance.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:26 pm 
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Biscuithead wrote:
TheFacelessEvil wrote:
Haha, that's very true. The new pope is probably trying to earn his hat.
You're right there, I've seen nothing but drama from this guy since he got into the Vatican.
I think it's a good thing that he's trying to deal with modern issues, and is not afraid to voice his beliefs. It's just a lot of people (myself included) don't agree with his beliefs.


As for the whole after death baptism thing I'm not sure what to think. I mean there is a whole lot of time between when you die and judgement day, so a person's soul has a lot of time to decide what to believe, if you want to think of it that way. But then again, time has no meaning when you're dead.
My church tells me to reject things like this, and also Catholic things such as prayers for the dead, because it's not mentioned in the bible. But the bible never says not to do it either so I think it might be ok.

The one issue I have is this: Say there are two twins. They are exactly the same in every way. Both die, both are not Mormons. One gets baptised after death and the other does not. So if you believe in Mormon teachings and whatever, would only the one who got baptised be saved?
That seems a little unfair. Salvation is supposed to depend on a person's own decisions not those of others.


Agreed 100% ! I couldn't have said it better myself. You did it awesome-like. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:36 pm 
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The one issue I have is this: Say there are two twins. They are exactly the same in every way. Both die, both are not Mormons. One gets baptised after death and the other does not. So if you believe in Mormon teachings and whatever, would only the one who got baptised be saved?
That seems a little unfair. Salvation is supposed to depend on a person's own decisions not those of others.


Everyone will have the opportunity. Every single person who has been born will get a shot at baptism.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:38 pm 
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lahimatoa wrote:
Everyone will have the opportunity. Every single person who has been born will get a shot at baptism.


Serious question: Why don't Mormons blanket-baptize everyone? Like, take a day to bless all of the dead in one big she-bang.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:03 pm 
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TheFacelessEvil wrote:

Serious question: Why don't Mormons blanket-baptize everyone? Like, take a day to bless all of the dead in one big she-bang.


To God, every soul is precious. Salvation is individual. Everyone makes their own choice, everyone does their own work. On earth, we must be baptized one at a time... that extends to people who have passed on, as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:05 pm 
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lahimatoa wrote:
TheFacelessEvil wrote:

Serious question: Why don't Mormons blanket-baptize everyone? Like, take a day to bless all of the dead in one big she-bang.


To God, every soul is precious. Salvation is individual. Everyone makes their own choice, everyone does their own work. On earth, we must be baptized one at a time... that extends to people who have passed on, as well.


I gotcha, that makes sense. Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:06 pm 
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No problem. I appreciate your questions.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:56 pm 
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This Triple-Headed Cow Cult sounds interesting. Can someone send me some literature?


The only known documents were written by the Great Alberto that was linked to in one of the ancient awards.

Quote:
We're a cult apparently. All hail our Cow headed god with one thousand arms, Cesnoctelopes


Guess it's a one-thousand armed god with a cow head.

Also it would bother me because I'd rather not worship a three-headed cow unless it gave me candy or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:48 pm 
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Biscuithead wrote:
That seems a little unfair. Salvation is supposed to depend on a person's own decisions not those of others.

Well, as a protestant Christian myself, I don't find anything about salvation 'fair'... :)

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:12 am 
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^ Very true. I wouldn't want it to be fair either...

lahimatoa wrote:
Quote:
The one issue I have is this: Say there are two twins. They are exactly the same in every way. Both die, both are not Mormons. One gets baptised after death and the other does not. So if you believe in Mormon teachings and whatever, would only the one who got baptised be saved?
That seems a little unfair. Salvation is supposed to depend on a person's own decisions not those of others.


Everyone will have the opportunity. Every single person who has been born will get a shot at baptism.


Not meaning to be rude, but if everyone will eventually get a chance at baptism, why bother with post-death baptism at all?

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:21 am 
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Biscuithead wrote:
^ Very true. I wouldn't want it to be fair either...


Why not?

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:24 am 
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Jitka wrote:
he would actually just probably stab you to death

Too sensual.

Also, Baptists are pretty much Catholics that disagree with the Church. They're more dedicated to Christ than Protestants, but they... agh, hell with it, it's confusing.
Wait, we were talking about Baptism right?

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:39 am 
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Jitka wrote:
Biscuithead wrote:
^ Very true. I wouldn't want it to be fair either...


Why not?
I thought someone would ask that. If God gave everyone what they deserve, we'd all be in Hell. I wouldn't want that.

Word Up wrote:
Also, Baptists are pretty much Catholics that disagree with the Church. They're more dedicated to Christ than Protestants, but they... agh, hell with it, it's confusing.
Wait, we were talking about Baptism right?


Close, but I think you're a little confused on a few points: Baptists = Protestants.
They're one of many types of Protestants.
Also, all Protestants disagree with the Catholic church, wanting to be more dedicated to God than to tradition. Or at least that's how it was hundreds of years ago, the Catholic church isn't so bad now.
Finally, Baptists aren't the only ones who baptise, they just do it in a different way to moist churches.

I could go on for hours about this church history stuff, (I used to be a Baptist, and I studied Religion at school) but I think I'll spare you.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:41 am 
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Well, what I mean is, most Protestant religions... Puritans, etc., don't take Christianity as seriously as Baptists.

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:14 am 
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Biscuithead wrote:

Not meaning to be rude, but if everyone will eventually get a chance at baptism, why bother with post-death baptism at all?


Everyone will eventually get a chance at baptism through baptism for the dead. It's going to a while. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:18 am 
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Word Up wrote:
Well, what I mean is, most Protestant religions... Puritans, etc., don't take Christianity as seriously as Baptists.


Guessing you're a Baptist, right? You do know that Baptists are Protestant, right? If you aren't Catholic, you're Protestant, that's how it works.


Biscuithead, wouldn't you rather God just forgave everybody automatically?

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 Post subject: Re: Pope ticked at Mormons
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:57 am 
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Jitka wrote:
Biscuithead, wouldn't you rather God just forgave everybody automatically?


Well, he kinda does. All he wants is for people ask for forgiveness, and make an attempt to stop doing whatever they were doing that is wrong.

And I'd rather have that than the system they had 1000s of years ago, with animal sacrifices etc.

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