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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 11:15 pm 
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Ingiald wrote:
I meant most of them still follow the rule in Leviticus. Sorry for the ambiguity.

OH! Yeah that makes more sense. No problem. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 11:23 pm 
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TheFacelessEvil wrote:
It doesn't work that way.
I have a Methodist Church in my neighborhood that has a gay pride flag on it, what should I tell them?[/color]
Fight the good fight: Kill white. Congrats for being true Christians.

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 11:26 pm 
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Beyond the Grave wrote:
Fight the good fight: Kill white. Congrats for being true Christians.


fjklds... *chokes* Wait, what--

For the curious, here are the passages that deal with Homosexuality in the Bible. Gonna edit my main post to include this...

haha, now it's turning into a reference book. Dang, I love to organize crap.

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 12:24 am 
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My personal feeling on most of the laws of the Pentateuch (and I'm sure some cunning linguist will try to come up with something to contradict this, but it works for now): God's basically saying "follow these rules or die. Not because I'll rain down fire and brimstone down on you, but because the empires that keep popping up around you will wipe you off the map". Don't be gay because you're supposed to be producing more children of Israel. Shun lepers because if you don't the plague will spread. Don't eat pigs and crows and stuff because they eat their own crap and you'll probably get sick and die. Don't do it with your sister or mother or aunt or daughter because you'll most likely produce deformed children. Don't drink in excess because you'll get drunk and won't be doing any good for anybody. Enslave or wipe out the nations around you because if you don't they'll do the same thing to you in a heartbeat. Don't worship other gods because, let's be honest with ourselves, you're a tiny country sitting on a trade crossroads and fertile land that's surrounded by desert, and God's the only one keeping you from being wiped out. Also, at least the God of Israel doesn't do crap like destroy a town because somebody turned down their daughter or screw around with hundreds of human women and then instigate a war to get rid of the evidence or ask you to kill babies. You gotta give Him some credit for that. And when the Jews didn't have their own country they were a tiny minority in countries that for the most part worked to get rid of them. So, do these rules apply to people in a modern society who are fairly safe from genocide or plagues? I think that if you genuinely love others and ask forgiveness when you really mess up, they don't necessarily have to.

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 1:08 am 
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Ingiald wrote:
Also, at least the God of Israel doesn't do crap like destroy a town because somebody turned down their daughter or screw around with hundreds of human women and then instigate a war to get rid of the evidence or ask you to kill babies. You gotta give Him some credit for that.

No, I don't. God of Israel wiped out several cities, lots of people, and slaughtered the first born sons of Egypt(including infants) in some form of Divine Punishment. Regardless, this isn't the thread for Religious debate - just homosexuality.

Ingiald wrote:
So, do these rules apply to people in a modern society who are fairly safe from genocide or plagues? I think that if you genuinely love others and ask forgiveness when you really mess up, they don't necessarily have to.

Thus the rules against homosexuality don't apply anymore, or does it fall under the 'really mess up' catagory?

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 1:32 am 
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Yeah, I kinda went on a tangent there. Sorry about that.
TheFacelessEvil wrote:
Ingiald wrote:
Also, at least the God of Israel doesn't do crap like destroy a town because somebody turned down their daughter or screw around with hundreds of human women and then instigate a war to get rid of the evidence or ask you to kill babies. You gotta give Him some credit for that.

No, I don't. God of Israel wiped out several cities, lots of people, and slaughtered the first born sons of Egypt(including infants) in some form of Divine Punishment. Regardless, this isn't the thread for Religious debate - just homosexuality.
Well, at least in those cases God was actually punishing people for doing something that was probably wrong, and I feel at least had some semblance of a justification. In the examples I listed (from The Epic of Gilgamesh, the Trojan War in Greek myth, and I believe something about the Phoenecians, respectively), the gods killed off people for something petty and stupid or just because they felt like it. But you're right, that's not exactly on topic.

Quote:
Ingiald wrote:
So, do these rules apply to people in a modern society who are fairly safe from genocide or plagues? I think that if you genuinely love others and ask forgiveness when you really mess up, they don't necessarily have to.

Thus the rules against homosexuality don't apply anymore, or does it fall under the 'really mess up' catagory?
I thought I had made it clear already, but I feel it was one of the rules that was there to make sure the Israelites didn't die out, and don't think of it as inherently wrong.

Also, because I'm in a self-depreciating mood tonight, let's see what me from four years ago had to say about this topic:
Ingiald the Ill wrote:
Who would be proud to have a gay govenor? That's rather odd. I'd move to another state.
some other guy wrote:
I would. I'm gay.
Ingiald the Ill wrote:
Okay, you didn't need to say that. This conversation would have gone on perfectly fine without you mentioning that. I'm not saying any more.

Ah, me from four years ago. Does the drama never end with you? Oh, that's right. It did. Nevermind. Although I have to admit that wasn't as hateful as I remember it. Get your head in the game, me from four years ago!

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:08 am 
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Yikes! Well, at least you're big enough to admit it when you reconize how you used to act. You were extreme then. I hope you don't disrespect yourself because of those past opinions, though. We all go through our phases. (Could you believe that I used to be a hardcore woman-hater?)

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:27 am 
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B...but you're..a woman..

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:28 am 
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HipHoppityFrogOfValue wrote:
B...but you're..a woman..


Exactly.
Try and figure that one out.

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:03 am 
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Ingiald wrote:
My personal feeling on most of the laws of the Pentateuch (and I'm sure some cunning linguist will try to come up with something to contradict this, but it works for now): God's basically saying "follow these rules or die. Not because I'll rain down fire and brimstone down on you, but because the empires that keep popping up around you will wipe you off the map". Don't be gay because you're supposed to be producing more children of Israel. Shun lepers because if you don't the plague will spread. Don't eat pigs and crows and stuff because they eat their own crap and you'll probably get sick and die. Don't do it with your sister or mother or aunt or daughter because you'll most likely produce deformed children. Don't drink in excess because you'll get drunk and won't be doing any good for anybody. Enslave or wipe out the nations around you because if you don't they'll do the same thing to you in a heartbeat. Don't worship other gods because, let's be honest with ourselves, you're a tiny country sitting on a trade crossroads and fertile land that's surrounded by desert, and God's the only one keeping you from being wiped out. Also, at least the God of Israel doesn't do crap like destroy a town because somebody turned down their daughter or screw around with hundreds of human women and then instigate a war to get rid of the evidence or ask you to kill babies. You gotta give Him some credit for that. And when the Jews didn't have their own country they were a tiny minority in countries that for the most part worked to get rid
of them.

I love you.

Ingiald wrote:
So, do these rules apply to people in a modern society who are fairly safe from genocide or plagues? I think that if you genuinely love others and ask forgiveness when you really mess up, they don't necessarily have to.

Wait, no I don't.

This is the biggest lie in all the churches out there. They say "If you love others and love God, nothing else matters". That's a load of crap.

I agree with Jimmie here. Gays can be gay all they want, but if they ever try to become Christians they have to know that being homosexual is a sin.

Yes, a lot of the rules God gave to the Jews were removed when Jesus came, but a lot of them weren't. You can't just ignore all the Old Testament rules, you have to realise that some laws were only aimed at Jewish society and some were aimed at all of humanity. The laws against homosexuality are an example of universal laws which never change.

I don't have a problem with gay people on the whole, I know quite a few. I just can't believe that some people think it's ok to be gay AND Christian. You are either for God or against him, and if you are living in sin by being gay and not even attempting to change, then you are clearly against him.

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:06 am 
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Biscuithead wrote:
I don't have a problem with gay people on the whole, I know quite a few. I just can't believe that some people think it's ok to be gay AND Christian. You are either for God or against him, and if you are living in sin by being gay and not even attempting to change, then you are clearly against him.


I appreciate your honesty, and your straight-forward view. I know that the Bible stresses that you shouldn't question God in his wisdom, but do you happen to have a theory of why he would be against Homosexuality? Or is it something you don't think about?

On a side note: You forgot to capitalize 'Him'. As a believer, he might like that.

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:29 am 
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TheFacelessEvil wrote:
On a side note: You forgot to capitalize 'Him'. As a believer, he might like that.

Well, I'll be damned.... Arrrrgggghhhhhblblblblbl......

Now that that's sorted, I disargee with your idea that the bible says we shouldn't question God. I question a lot of biblical ideas and even God's laws themselves, it's how I learn and grow.

On the subject I could give a few verses: Leviticus 18:22 was mentioned earlier, there is also Leviticus 20: 13 which says it even more strongly:
"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must both be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

There is also Romans 1: 18, 26 and 27
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness... Because of this God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

And the context of both of these is lists of different types of sexual sin such as incest or beastiality. So it seems the bible ranks homosexuality as similar in nature to those.

The message here is pretty clear. God is against homosexuality.

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:52 am 
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There's a whole host of things I could say about how the Bible was written by ignorant men 2000 years ago who all had their own agendas, but I won't because they've all either been said already or could be said better by someone else.

Suffice it to say that there's no way a NATURAL GENETIC PREDISPOSITION can be a sin. Basically, the ancient Hebrews or whoever thought, "Ew, look at those queers! THAT AIN'T RIGHT!" and then decided that that was God's opinion as well.

The Bible is open for interpretation. No one can definitively state what God is for and what he is against. Despite what the Bible may say, it is not infallible, and the only one who knows the truth is God. I prefer to think that God uses common sense and logic in the way He operates the universe and his system of what's a sin and what isn't.

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:54 am 
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Biscuithead wrote:
Now that that's sorted, I disargee with your idea that the bible says we shouldn't question God. I question a lot of biblical ideas and even God's laws themselves, it's how I learn and grow.

Interestingly enough, I think God really likes the unquestioning types.

Biscuithead wrote:
[bible passages]

And the context of both of these is lists of different types of sexual sin such as incest or beastiality. So it seems the bible ranks homosexuality as similar in nature to those.

The message here is pretty clear. God is against homosexuality.

So, in your opinion, you believe that this is true: Incest and beastiality is the same as homosexuality? That we, humans, are the superior race of this planet versus nature which exibits homosexuality?

Deeper question: Why isn't the issue of Homosexuality addressed in the commandments, as it ranks as such an extreme sin? Why did Jesus not warn us?

"Now behold, one came and said to Him, 'Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?' So He said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.'

"He said to Him, 'Which ones?' Jesus said, 'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'" (Matthew 19:16-19).


Hm... Something makes me think that this 'sin' isn't quite a deal breaker after all... Your thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 12:58 pm 
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As a non-believer, I frankly don't care what the Bible says about homosexuality (except I hate it when Christians persecute gay people, of course). But there was a particular passage or two that Didymus always used -- not the infamous Leviticus one -- to point out that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, and I can't remember what it was. I do know that I think it's a lot more open to interpretation than he does, though. I'm not saying that his interpretation is wrong, but to take such things and claim you're 100% right is, in my opinion, a bit... what's the word?... well, I don't know, but my point is that there are few things one can ever be 100% sure about, and I think pretty much anything in the Bible definitely falls into that territory whether you're a believer or not.

TheFacelessEvil wrote:
On a side note: You forgot to capitalize 'Him'. As a believer, he might like that.


I always thought that was a dumb idea even when I was a Christian, really... after all, it's only a silly, inconsistent convention made up by man. It doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that one must capitalize pronouns in reference to God. (In fact, Hebrew didn't even have capital/lowercase letters, and Greek didn't use the same conventions with capital/lowercase letters that we do.)

- Kef

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:36 pm 
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furrykef wrote:
As a non-believer, I frankly don't care what the Bible says about homosexuality (except I hate it when Christians persecute gay people, of course). But there was a particular passage or two that Didymus always used -- not the infamous Leviticus one -- to point out that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, and I can't remember what it was. I do know that I think it's a lot more open to interpretation than he does, though. I'm not saying that his interpretation is wrong, but to take such things and claim you're 100% right is, in my opinion, a bit... what's the word?... well, I don't know, but my point is that there are few things one can ever be 100% sure about, and I think pretty much anything in the Bible definitely falls into that territory whether you're a believer or not.

In my initial post, I've included a link to include the passages that speak of Homosexuality. Is any of those one of them that you're referring to?

In my opinion, you shouldn't be gay and Christian because, frankly, you shouldn't be Christian period, but I'm not going into that. ;) I just like discussing it with believers who are willing, because as a former Catholic I'm educated on the ins and outs and I want to know what people believe as a person, rather then just what their texts state.


kef wrote:
I always thought that was a dumb idea even when I was a Christian, really... after all, it's only a silly, inconsistent convention made up by man. It doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that one must capitalize pronouns in reference to God. (In fact, Hebrew didn't even have capital/lowercase letters, and Greek didn't use the same conventions with capital/lowercase letters that we do.)

The entire Religion is a silly, inconsistent convention... I think it's just an English form of respect.

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:44 pm 
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Here are my thoughts: I'm a Christian. I believe that God wrote the Bible using men. Since God wrote the Bible, and God says in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong, and God can never lie, then I believe homosexuality is wrong. However, I'm not going to go around burning gay people's houses. I will, however, tell them that they are in the wrong, and if they don't repent, they will be punished. I'm not the one to bring that punishment on them, however. So, people can be gay; I won't stop them. God might though. (And no, I'm not going to go into a detailed defense of the Divine authorship of the Bible).

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:47 pm 
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STupendous7 wrote:
Here are my thoughts: I'm a Christian. I believe that God wrote the Bible using men. Since God wrote the Bible, and God says in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong, and God can never lie, then I believe homosexuality is wrong. However, I'm not going to go around burning gay people's houses. I will, however, tell them that they are in the wrong, and if they don't repent, they will be punished. I'm not the one to bring that punishment on them, however. So, people can be gay; I won't stop them. God might though. (And no, I'm not going to go into a detailed defense of the Divine authorship of the Bible).

^ This makes perfect sense, from a Christian point of view.

The big question is: Why do you think that God believes that Homosexuality is wrong/wicked?

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:48 pm 
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TheFacelessEvil wrote:
STupendous7 wrote:
Here are my thoughts: I'm a Christian. I believe that God wrote the Bible using men. Since God wrote the Bible, and God says in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong, and God can never lie, then I believe homosexuality is wrong. However, I'm not going to go around burning gay people's houses. I will, however, tell them that they are in the wrong, and if they don't repent, they will be punished. I'm not the one to bring that punishment on them, however. So, people can be gay; I won't stop them. God might though. (And no, I'm not going to go into a detailed defense of the Divine authorship of the Bible).

^ This makes perfect sense, from a Christian point of view.

The big question is: Why do you think that God believes that Homosexuality is wrong/wicked?

My answer to that is this quote from Isaiah: "Will the clay say to the potter, 'What have you made?'" (Or something like that).

Basically, we're God's creation. I don't think we're in any position to question what He says.

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:49 pm 
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STupendous7 wrote:
My answer to that is this quote from Isaiah: "Will the clay say to the potter, 'What have you made?'"

Basically, we're God's creation. I don't think we're in any position to question what He says.

In my opinion: That is the PERFECT Christian answer.

For the curious, here's the passage STu mentioned, and it's many different translations.

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:52 pm 
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TheFacelessEvil wrote:
STupendous7 wrote:
My answer to that is this quote from Isaiah: "Will the clay say to the potter, 'What have you made?'"

Basically, we're God's creation. I don't think we're in any position to question what He says.

In my opinion: That is the PERFECT Christian answer.

Here's another thought: God made Adam and Eve to be married. He did not create men to be married to each other or women.

Is that another perfect Christian answer for you? :P

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:55 pm 
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STupendous7 wrote:
Here's another thought: God made Adam and Eve to be married. He did not create men to be married to each other or women.

Is that another perfect Christian answer for you? :P

Yup, it would be.

It doesn't answer the question the world has of God. "Why is this a sin?" or "Why is this not in your commandments if it is a mortal sin?"

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:30 pm 
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You know what? I probably shouldn't have posted. My thoughts on matters like this will probably be completely different in a few months anyway and it appears that I got on no one's good side. Ah, well.

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:34 pm 
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Ingiald wrote:
You know what? I probably shouldn't have posted. My thoughts on matters like this will probably be completely different in a few months anyway and it appears that I got on no one's good side. Ah, well.


:(

Seriously, don't have low self esteem about your opinions. You have them, you stand by them, and if you change your mind later that's perfectly fine. I have nothing but respect for what you say, so I hope you don't think that I'm mad at you or anything. I just like to ask questions, you know, dig a little deeper into why people think the way that they think. That has nothing to do with you as a person.

C'mon. Chin up.

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:54 pm 
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TheFacelessEvil wrote:
In my opinion, you shouldn't be gay and Christian because, frankly, you shouldn't be Christian period, but I'm not going into that. ;)
TheFacelessEvil wrote:
The entire Religion is a silly, inconsistent convention...
TheFacelessEvil wrote:
In my opinion: That is the PERFECT Christian answer.
Haha. Respect. Hahaha.

But seriously. It's not like I'm going to kill myself over this or anything. I learned long ago not to care all that much what people on the Internet think of me. And like I said, my views on such thing change completely every few months or so. I was just observing that trying to find a middle ground between two sides of the debate is useless in this sort of thing and I don't have that strong of feelings about it anyway, so my post was pretty much pointless.

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:57 pm 
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Ingiald wrote:
TheFacelessEvil wrote:
In my opinion, you shouldn't be gay and Christian because, frankly, you shouldn't be Christian period, but I'm not going into that. ;)
TheFacelessEvil wrote:
The entire Religion is a silly, inconsistent convention...

TheFacelessEvil wrote:
In my opinion: That is the PERFECT Christian answer.
Haha. Respect. Hahaha.

But seriously. It's not like I'm going to kill myself over this or anything. I learned long ago not to care all that much what people on the Internet think of me. And like I said, my views on such thing change completely every few months or so. I was just observing that trying to find a middle ground between two sides of the debate is useless in this sort of thing and I don't have that strong of feelings about it anyway, so my post was pretty much pointless.

I don't understand. The first two are my personal beliefs, and the last one was towards Biscuithead. If in anyway that disrespects you, I'm sorry, that's just my opinion.

I can see that. But, it wasn't pointless to me.

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:24 pm 
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You might not have meant them this way, but to me all three of those posts, and the third one a little more implicitly, seem to be saying something to the effect of "your religion sucks and if you're not a bigot then you're doing it wrong", which to me kinda contradicts the whole "I respect your opinion" thing.

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:37 pm 
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Ingiald wrote:
You might not have meant them this way, but to me all three of those posts, and the third one a little more implicitly, seem to be saying something to the effect of "your religion sucks and if you're not a bigot then you're doing it wrong", which to me kinda contradicts the whole "I respect your opinion" thing.


I can respect your opinion without agreeing with it.

My opinion: Christian faiths that accept Homosexual members are clearly disobeying the book that they claim to preach from. I think it's wonderful when these faiths DO accept Homosexual members, promote tolerance, and etc... But that isn't what their book teaches.

So why use that book? I find it interesting that different branches of Christianity use it more of guideline rather then law, but again, that isn't what the book preaches. It claims that it is the law - the clear mouthpiece of God despite being written by man and translated time and time again. So why cling to it? Why try to mutate it? Why not let it go?

Ultimately, that's a conversation topic for another thread. This one deals clearly with the homo side, and the Bible clearly does not want that side accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven.

I respect your decisions, I respect the choices you make - but again, I don't have to agree with them.

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:41 pm 
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STupendous7 wrote:
God says in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong


Prove it.

This isn't intended to be an insult, but I can say that most people who say that the Bible condemns homosexuality, including those who quote from Bible passages that have been translated into English, have no clue what they're talking about. Didymus is one of the few people here (well, if we include people who used to be here) who did in fact know what he was talking about when saying this.

STupendous7 wrote:
Here's another thought: God made Adam and Eve to be married. He did not create men to be married to each other or women.


If you wish to populate the planet, then creating only two men or two women would be counterproductive, now, wouldn't it? I'd say that the planet is pretty well populated by now.

- Kef

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 Post subject: Re: The Homosexual Thread AKA The Gay Agenda
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:45 pm 
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furrykef wrote:
STupendous7 wrote:
God says in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong

Prove it.

See my original post, has bible passage links there. Words of God from the Bible condemning homosexuality.

furrykef wrote:
STupendous7 wrote:
Here's another thought: God made Adam and Eve to be married. He did not create men to be married to each other or women.

If you wish to populate the planet, then creating only two men or two women would be counterproductive, now, wouldn't it? I'd say that the planet is pretty well populated by now.

If population was God's beef regarding Homosexuality, that counterpoint would make sense. But nobody seems to know what God's beef is. Is it an outdated societal thing? Then why hasn't God come back to make some amends to current developments? Why didn't he put it in the Ten Commandments? Why does nobody seem to be curious about this?

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