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Pick the response that most accurately applies.
I believe in evolution and I am not an atheist. 19%  19%  [ 15 ]
I believe in evolution and I am an atheist. 44%  44%  [ 34 ]
I am a young earth creationist. 13%  13%  [ 10 ]
I am an old earth creationist. 9%  9%  [ 7 ]
I believe in Intelligent Design. 5%  5%  [ 4 ]
I don't know what to believe. 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Other. 8%  8%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 78
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 Post subject: Creation vs. Evolution
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:13 pm 
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Well? ;) (Title taken from a thread in a GameFAQs board I saw long ago.)

[Edit by InterruptorJones: Changed the title 'cause it was getting on my nerves.]

[Edit by furrykef: InterruptorJones is no fun. (The old title was: "Cretinism versus Evilution")]


Last edited by furrykef on Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 7:18 pm 
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Kef, what are you talking about?

speak english

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:10 pm 
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"Creationism versus Evolution" warlord.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:21 pm 
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Yes, Warlord. The implied joke is that Evolutionists say that Creationists are stupid, while Creationists say that Evolutionists are evil.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:59 pm 
You spelled "evolution" wrong. It's E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:05 pm 
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Ingiald, I think he meant it as a joke. Like Evil-ution as in evil.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:09 pm 
Oh. Anyway, my opinion:

Even though I'm Christian, I personally beleive in evolution, but I beleive that it was controlled and overseen by God. My mom, grandparents, and uncle are all Creationists, and I don't mind. What I do mind is when people say: "If you beleive in evolution, you're going to Hell". I don't like that.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 11:17 pm 
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The_Green_Goblin wrote:
Ingiald, I think he meant it as a joke. Like Evil-ution as in evil.


Exactly. If you look again you'll notice "Creationism" was also (intentionally) misspelled. Cretin-ism.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:00 am 
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natural selection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection) - yes

The idea that we used to be monkeys - no

I am not sure how this sits with my religious beliefs, but I don't see how you can deny that it exists. So, what does that make me then?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:18 am 
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i'm a eveolutionist. my family's a bunch a scientists, and to quote my mom: there are scientists that beleve in creationism, but they are sure stupid scientists. no offence to creationists or creationist scientists.[/quote]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:41 am 
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i guess i belive in both

the scientific evidence is there

but the biblical evidence is there too

also, to people who say "Do i look like i am coverd in hair?" yes you do, look at your arm, it is coverd in thin blondish hair

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:49 am 
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warlordofhomsaria wrote:
also, to people who say "Do i look like i am coverd in hair?" yes you do, look at your arm, it is coverd in thin blondish hair


or blackish hair ;)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:49 am 
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I'll try to tackle this while I'm at work tomorrow morning. If you've been following the Religious Affiliations thread, you already know I've been reading a good book that deals with this subject somewhat. I'll be happy to share the things I've read, along with my own thoughts on the subject.

Oh, while I'm posting I suppose I could mention that I'm a Creationist.


Last edited by JoeyDay on Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:16 pm 
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Evolution. Very simple. I mean, Creationism doesn't make sense (due to the fact that there are TWO different Creation stories in the Bible). One of them says that God created man first, then the animals. The other one, He created animals first, and then man to rule them.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 10:10 pm 
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Coach Mindwarp wrote:
(due to the fact that there are TWO different Creation stories in the Bible).


Yeah, um, maybe you should catch up in the Religious Affiliations discussion. Contradictions in the Bible do not equal a false bible. That's kinda like claiming that contradictions in the 9/11 report mean that the attack never happened (and there just ain't enough tin foil in the world for that hat). So somebody screwed up when writing the story. Doesn't mean the story's completely devoid of fact. There are far better arguments to be made, here.

("InterruptorJones, Professional Devil's Advocate Since 1982!")

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 10:45 pm 
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InterruptorJones wrote:
Coach Mindwarp wrote:
(due to the fact that there are TWO different Creation stories in the Bible).


Yeah, um, maybe you should catch up in the Religious Affiliations discussion. Contradictions in the Bible do not equal a false bible. That's kinda like claiming that contradictions in the 9/11 report mean that the attack never happened (and there just ain't enough tin foil in the world for that hat). So somebody screwed up when writing the story. Doesn't mean the story's completely devoid of fact. There are far better arguments to be made, here.

("InterruptorJones, Professional Devil's Advocate Since 1982!")


Thank you, Jones!

I was about to go search for some obscure fact-laden article to slam down. I might anyway.

I'd also like to mention that if anyone is going to cite anything from the Bible, they'd better put their references in the post. Many of us base our lives on the Bible and read it all the time. It personally bothers me when I see people drawing conclusions and making stereotypical statements when they themselves are ignorant.

Not that I'm saying you're ignorant. Just cite your verses.

J.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 10:59 pm 
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Stu wrote:
natural selection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection) - yes

The idea that we used to be monkeys - no

I am not sure how this sits with my religious beliefs, but I don't see how you can deny that it exists. So, what does that make me then?


I totally agree, and I like to think of myself as a Jesus Freak. At least I hope Jesus sees me as a Jesus Freak...

Anyway, adaptation and natural selection are factual, I believe.

I find it hard to believe that we evolved from monkeytypes.

I wonder...If we originally came from monkeys, why haven't we changed into something else throughout the past couple thousand years of recorded history?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:18 pm 
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Evolution is simply life's way of adapting to changing environments.

Natural selection, on the other hand, was Darwin's attempt to explain the development of species apart from God. In a nutshell, it means that human beings are cosmic accidents.

I certainly allow that Christians who believe in evolution are not necessarily wrong. However, the theory of Natural Selection contradicts the Christian faith by denying the idea of a Creator and a divine plan. The Scriptures tell us that God created us, and if God is in any way involved in the process (whether through evolution or a more distinctly supernatural way), then the process cannot be called Natural Selection.

I wonder what the evolution of The Cheat looks like?

Anyone who says that scientists who believe in creation are stupid scientists is an arrogant, closed-minded bigot. No offense.

To illustrate my point, here are a few people who just happened to believe in creation who also happened to be great scientists:

Galileo, Blaise Pascal, Rene Descartes, Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein. Shall I go on?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:26 pm 
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Wait wait wait...I think I confused my scientific theories. I thought Natural Selection was that "survival of the fittest" thingy...

Man...do I look ignorant now, or what.

I think I need to delete these posts and start over!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:36 pm 
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Survival of the Fittest is just part of the equation. Random mutations is the other. Some mutations give creatures a better chance to survive in their environments than others. But the point is that life continues to evolve in a completely random way.

The theory of evolution goes back to the time of the Renaissance. Darwin did not invent it. Darwin only explained a way that life could originate APART FROM DIVINE POWER. Oddly enough, he himself was Christian and died in the good graces of the church.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:51 am 
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AgentSeethroo wrote:
I wonder...If we originally came from monkeys, why haven't we changed into something else throughout the past couple thousand years of recorded history?


Because it isn't enough time. 1000 years is a blink of an eye compared to the 4.57 billion year history of Earth that scientists suggest. According to this theory, the first single-celled life appeared around 3.6 billion years ago, and it took two more billion years just for that to evolve into more complex single-celled life. Of course, things sped up as dramatically as life proliferated, populations spread apart, conditions changed, and so on, so it needed only one more billion years to get to multicelled life. But it never sped up so much that a population like ours would evolve greatly in a couple thousand years. Though I'd suggest that in some ways we have evolved, but not to the point we became a different species. We've been evolving all this time after all, bit by bit. It's a gradual process; it's not like someday we just give birth to a superman. :)

Now if there were something more like 20,000 years of detailed, recorded history, perhaps we could actually see such change.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:08 am 
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Now according to the theory of Natural Selection, we'd just as easily evolve BACK into monkeys (completely random mutations, remember?) as to evolve into some sort of superman. Besides, he was Kryptonian, not human.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:14 am 
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I wouldn't think that de-evolution is "just as likely". While mutation is random, yes, I would think "survival of the fittest" ensures that the trend is towards advancement or, at worst, stagnation. It just means that the trend is less uniform.

It's like having a graph that goes upwards, and by adding a random factor to each point you get a more "random" zig-zaggy graph that nevertheless exhibits a positive correlation.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:19 pm 
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Didymus wrote:
Galileo, Blaise Pascal, Rene Descartes, Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein.


It's worth pointing out, here, that the only person on this list who lived during or after Darwin's life is Einstein. Since evolution wasn't even a theory in their time, the argument that they didn't believe in it doesn't seem terribly profound. And Descartes wasn't a scientist, justsoyaknow.

Anyway, I'd really prefer that you list some sources, here. Einstein's famous quote, of course, was "God does not play dice with the universe," but I'm not sure of the context.

Didymus wrote:
Now according to the theory of Natural Selection, we'd just as easily evolve BACK into monkeys (completely random mutations, remember?) as to evolve into some sort of superman.


You've got this a bit backwards. The mutations are random, but evolution is not. In the long view, only the mutations that are best suited for survival are passed along. So they only way we'd "de-evolve" would be if it were advantageous to our survival.

While perhaps humans could in the next few million years evolve physically to something more ape-like, it's definitely a stretch to suppose that we'll "de-evolve" intellectually, since our intellect is perhaps most key to our survival, on the basest level. Smart people survive and pass on their smarts. It's not something that's likely to get "bred out" of the species, unless evolution dictates that other mutations (like, um, hairier knuckles?) are far more important to our survival.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:50 pm 
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This is a great site about topics like this.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:16 pm 
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~Kupo~ wrote:
This is a great site about topics like this.


I think I may have mentioned it in the other thread, but Penn & Teller did an episode of their show Bullsh*t! about Creationism. They really take the "Intelligent Design" folks to task. Head down to your video rental store and rent the first season DVDs. It's a great series.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:07 pm 
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IJ:

Descartes WAS a scientist, as well as a mathamatician. He may be more famous as a philosopher, but he also did experiments as well. In fact, his whole philosophy was meant to justify and give credibility to his experiments.

The theory of evolution did exist in their time. Darwin's theory of natural selection did not. Of course I will concede that without DTNS, evolution would not have been very convincing.

And my point is that it closed-minded bigotry to call a scientist stupid just becuase you don't agree with his/her worldview. A better criterium for judging their intelligence is their contribution to the scientific community. Albert Einstein, for example, contributed a great deal to our understanding of physics. To call him stupid just because he believed in creation is stupid in itself.

I guess at this point, IJ, I would ask if you agree with this kind of closed-minded bigotry, or if you are simply trying to correct some minor errors you believe I have made in my argument.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:42 pm 
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Didymus wrote:
I guess at this point, IJ, I would ask if you agree with this kind of closed-minded bigotry, or if you are simply trying to correct some minor errors you believe I have made in my argument.


I seriously resent the implication. I didn't call anybody stupid. Nobody called anybody stupid. And somehow because I pointed out problems with your argument (some of which you effectively countered, some of which you did not), it's implied that I believe that scientists who believe in Creation are stupid and thus I'm a close-minded bigot? Ugh.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:17 pm 
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Stu wrote:
natural selection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection) - yes

The idea that we used to be monkeys - no

I am not sure how this sits with my religious beliefs, but I don't see how you can deny that it exists. So, what does that make me then?


From what I read over at the Religious Affiliations topic, and from what I've studied, this sits just fine with your religious beliefs.

I believe in Creationism ie the whole Adam and Eve story, but I also believe that us as well as all the other species have the ability to adapt. What to make of neanderthals, cro-magnon man etc, I'm not quite sure yet.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:08 pm 
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I never said the Bible was wrong. I just said that you can't take it literally. Sorry. :-(

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