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 Post subject: Deleting 'vague' fun facts
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 6:32 am 
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Just noticed when checking at the history of StrongBadEmail/cheatday/eastereggs that some people delete fun facts they don't agree with.

Two examples... someone pointed out that Strong Bad calling Bubs "kid" is a reference to monument, where Bubs calls Strong Bad "kid". Okay, not exactly very striking, but the same thing occured to me when I saw that email, and I was actually about to add this bit of information when I noticed that somebody else already did.

Also, another user noted that the fake ID with "HT, WT, Type" has a close resemblance to the Pokemon games, and given the Brothers Chaps' obsession of video games and Japanese culture, this is a valid point.

Yet, two users removed those entries, with the smart explanations "Probably not" and "Now that's what I call Cohen C. Dense".

I didn't write those entries, so I'm not bitter about them removed, but IMHO it is very egotistical to remove an entry just because you don't agree with it or question its validity. This is especially true when it comes to 'fun facts' where a reference might or might not be coincidental.

This reminds me very much of users on the IMDB who flood boards with messages like "you have to boycott this movie because it will suck" or "anybody who likes this movie has to have his head examined". Hey, just because you don't think something qualifies as a fun fact doesn't mean that nobody else does.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:17 am 
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I agree with both of those points, though I'm not so sure it's a Pokemon reference (I'm thinking, for instance, "type" was supposed to mean "blood type", but not knowing what it was, either The Cheat or the cardmaker chose "Miner"). Bubs is far more likely to call somebody "kid" than Strong Bad, so I do think that's a Monument/Thnikkaman reference.

I did remove the information on the ID card from Fun Facts since it's already in the transcript and a screenshot is shown at StrongBadEmail/cheatday ...duplicating it a third time seems silly to me.

- Kef


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 12:40 pm 
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furrykef wrote:
I agree with both of those points, though I'm not so sure it's a Pokemon reference (I'm thinking, for instance, "type" was supposed to mean "blood type", but not knowing what it was, either The Cheat or the cardmaker chose "Miner"). Bubs is far more likely to call somebody "kid" than Strong Bad, so I do think that's a Monument/Thnikkaman reference.

I did remove the information on the ID card from Fun Facts since it's already in the transcript and a screenshot is shown at StrongBadEmail/cheatday ...duplicating it a third time seems silly to me.

- Kef

In regards to the Pokemon thing, there seem to be some users that see a lot of Pokemon references in everything. I'm not sure how to say this... but I think it might have something to do with their age. (I could easily be wrong on this, but it's something to keep in mind.) I really don't think that any of these types of references work in the Homestar Runner universe. I've never seen anything on The Brothers Chaps that says anything about Pokemon. But I'd still be open to some evidence of a connection...

I agree with Kef's removal of the ID card, since it is in the transcript of the toon. That's not even an issue in my mind, especially under OnceAndOnlyOnce.

EboMike wrote:
Two examples... someone pointed out that Strong Bad calling Bubs "kid" is a reference to monument, where Bubs calls Strong Bad "kid". Okay, not exactly very striking, but the same thing occured to me when I saw that email, and I was actually about to add this bit of information when I noticed that somebody else already did.

Yeah, the "kid" thing was really a kind of a stretch. The only way I would think that could come back is if it worded properly. I'm not really sure how though... But I also thought of it during my first viewing.

EboMike wrote:
Yet, two users removed those entries, with the smart explanations "Probably not" and "Now that's what I call Cohen C. Dense".

I didn't write those entries, so I'm not bitter about them removed, but IMHO it is very egotistical to remove an entry just because you don't agree with it or question its validity. This is especially true when it comes to 'fun facts' where a reference might or might not be coincidental.

I think it really comes down to this here. The people editing other's fun facts. They could have tried to re-word them, and gotten some input from other users. Or they could have left better reasons for their removal. There's never any harm in starting a "Comments" subpage to discuss something, and perhaps we should start encouraging it. I know those "discussion" pages seem to be used well in the WikiPedia, but furrykef would know more about that than I would.

Coming to the forum to discuss it was a good move, EboMike.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:31 pm 
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I don't have an opinion on either of these specific issues, but a lot of FFs do get deleted that oughtn't. I think mostly it's a matter of wording. People put "X is a Pokemon reference", and that's clearly not true. "X could be a Pokemon reference" or "X may be a Pokemon reference" is a lot more realistic.

Trouble is, like every other depate that happens on the Wiki, there are no absolutes. For example, someone was absolutely convinced that the "Ryan S." General Tao's Chicken definitely meant Ryan Seacrest, but I'm pretty convinced that American Idol (he's an American Idol person, right?) was about the furthest thing from our heroes' minds.

In the past we've settled debates with polls, but if we have a poll over every little disagreement, it's going to get out of hand.

In other words, I don't have a solution.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:45 pm 
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InterruptorJones wrote:
I don't have an opinion on either of these specific issues, but a lot of FFs do get deleted that oughtn't. I think mostly it's a matter of wording. People put "X is a Pokemon reference", and that's clearly not true. "X could be a Pokemon reference" or "X may be a Pokemon reference" is a lot more realistic.

Yeah, this is what I was getting at earlier. People just need to keep in mind that words like "it's possible that" or "some maintain that" or "could be" or "most scientists agree" can work in some situations.

InterruptorJones wrote:
Trouble is, like every other depate that happens on the Wiki, there are no absolutes. For example, someone was absolutely convinced that the "Ryan S." General Tao's Chicken definitely meant Ryan Seacrest, but I'm pretty convinced that American Idol (he's an American Idol person, right?) was about the furthest thing from our heroes' minds.

I remember that. I think they said something like this Ryan guy made a Homestar reference on one of the shows, so The Brothers Chaps reference him.

InterruptorJones wrote:
In the past we've settled debates with polls, but if we have a poll over every little disagreement, it's going to get out of hand.

I definitely agree with you on that one.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:24 pm 
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Despite the recent plague of alleged references to current pop culture, I'd have to say I agree that this is probably is a Pokémon reference. "Height", "weight" and "type" seems very specific to the Pokémon data format, it's not likely to appear out of context, and the Chaps have done at least two 'mon references in the past.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:27 pm 
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As much as I hate to admit it, I think I have to agree with Upsilon. The Cheat is often compared to a Pokemon and TBC have alluded to the fact before.

I don't know anything about Pokemon, but if Pokemon cards have HT, WT, and Type as these folks suggest, then I think this one should stay.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:59 pm 
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InterruptorJones wrote:
I don't know anything about Pokemon, but if Pokemon cards have HT, WT, and Type as these folks suggest, then I think this one should stay.

Of course. What was explained to us here is that "some evidence of a connection" I mentioned earlier. Now you just need to make sure that it is explained to the viewers of the fun fact.

In the research I did, I couldn't find the word "Type" on any of the Pokemon cards I found. (We are talking about the card game, right?) Also, they seem to have "height" (or "length") and "weight" instead of "HT" and "WT". I see those abbreviations used on some of the websites that describe the cards, but not on the actual cards themselves. Of course, I'm way out of my league here, because we might not even be talking about the cards.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:08 pm 
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No, we're talking about the original game. The data on the various Pokémon on your Pokédex begins with height, weight and type.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:14 pm 
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Upsilon wrote:
No, we're talking about the original game. The data on the various Pokémon on your Pokédex begins with height, weight and type.

Hmm. Okay then. So it isn't "HT", "WT", and "Type"? It's the actual words?

I really hate that I'm analyzing it this much, by the way...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:19 pm 
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No, it was displayed as "HT", "WT" and "TYPE" (I think).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:22 pm 
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Wait a sec...
Upsilon, aren't you in Europe?

Could it be possible that your pokemon cards are different from the ones we received here in the states?

Agent J.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:25 pm 
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Maybe, I don't know. It's not relevant - this isn't about the cards.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:27 pm 
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Upsilon wrote:
Maybe, I don't know. It's not relevant - this isn't about the cards.


I thought it was...aren't we trying to see if it's a definite reference?

I just ask because Tom brought up the cards in the first place, and you seemed to continue with it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:39 pm 
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No, we're talking about the video game, which was what the original fun fact concerned.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:51 pm 
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"HT", "WT", and "Type" seem to be a very specific description. Hey, I checked my own ID, and it sure has other fields on it!

I have zero knowledge about Pokemon, so I cannot verify it, but it looks like a pretty strong reference if HT/WT/Type is really the way Pokemon are described.

Bubs... well, in the 100+ emails we have, nobody ever called anybody else 'kid', except for Bubs in "monument" (which was so striking that everybody designated 'Shut up, kids!' to be that email's tagline), so it does seem like a reference. Especially since Bubs is probably older than Strong Bad. And "Get outta here, kid" has the same tone as "Shut up, kids!".

But I don't want to instigate a discussion about whether or not that is a reference or not - my point is still that removing fun facts because you happen to disagree is just wrong, and I'd prefer to see those self-appointed hrwiki-cops who see it as their duty to remove things they deem inferior stop this practice.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 6:02 pm 
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EboMike wrote:
But I don't want to instigate a discussion about whether or not that is a reference or not - my point is still that removing fun facts because you happen to disagree is just wrong, and I'd prefer to see those self-appointed hrwiki-cops who see it as their duty to remove things they deem inferior stop this practice.


Agreed.

But some "facts" do deserve to be removed. Some are actually wrong, or so far-fetched as to be astronomically implausible. We can't let everything anybody posts stay. A FunFact needs to have some merit (as judged by the community) in order to have a place on the page.

The trouble you're going to find, Mike, is that there's no line. There are some people who will think that FunFact X is astronomically implausible while the Pokemon or American Idol fan who posted it thinks it's an absolute certainty.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:26 pm 
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As someone who has had some of his fun facts removed, I will say that no fun facts should be removed. If you disagree about them, then add a comment underneath the fact, such as "I disagree" or "Please clarify". I *ALSO* noted the "monument" reference in "get out of here, kid!", so we are not alone.

Basically, if someone thinks of a fun fact, it's probably close enough to true to at least let it sit there for a few days and see if others agree.. it's really not fair for a zealous user to remove the fact just minutes after it was put there, before most people even get to see it.

yours,
socetew

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:38 pm 
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socetew wrote:
As someone who has had some of his fun facts removed, I will say that no fun facts should be removed. If you disagree about them, then add a comment underneath the fact, such as "I disagree" or "Please clarify". I *ALSO* noted the "monument" reference in "get out of here, kid!", so we are not alone.

Basically, if someone thinks of a fun fact, it's probably close enough to true to at least let it sit there for a few days and see if others agree.. it's really not fair for a zealous user to remove the fact just minutes after it was put there, before most people even get to see it.

yours,
socetew

Mr. Soce has some good ideas here.

I like the idea of putting a comment below to declare a want for clarification. I know something similar to that is in progress now in trying to determine what the Visor Robot is saying at the end of the Senor Mortgage short on that respective easter egg page.

The only problem is that this can get a bit out of hand, and then who is the one who decides what's going to stay when the comments have to be removed? (As they should be eventually, since we are going for "all information" on these types of pages.)

And then what if someone just puts a fun fact up in passing and doesn't check back for a while? Or ever?

Hmm...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:42 pm 
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Tom wrote:

And then what if someone just puts a fun fact up in passing and doesn't check back for a while? Or ever?

Hmm...


Well...that's what WikiPolls are for, right??


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:47 pm 
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AgentSeethroo wrote:
Well...that's what WikiPolls are for, right??

Nope. We can't have a poll for every fun fact.

Seriously.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:48 pm 
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Tom wrote:
AgentSeethroo wrote:
Well...that's what WikiPolls are for, right??

Nope. We can't have a poll for every fun fact.

Seriously.


arg. Oh well. In that case, Soce is right.
Or something.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:26 pm 
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I think the MOD's from the forum should have final say so on deletion or inclusion of fun facts, or deletion of anything for that matter. I mean, everyone can do their own policing of the wiki, but if JoeyDay or any of the other MOD's decide that something stays or goes, then it does so, PERMANENTLY! They police the forum and have final say so here, so why shouldn't they have veto power on the wiki as well?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:30 pm 
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The mods only lord over the forums, not the wiki. Excepting thing like security and trolls, decisions on the Wiki are (ideally) made by the community as a whole whenever possible.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:32 pm 
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I'm down with that; I just figured you guys would have automatic, no questions asked, final opinions on things.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:03 pm 
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I would also agree with the monument reference, btw.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:48 am 
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Tom wrote:
I've never seen anything on The Brothers Chaps that says anything about Pokemon. But I'd still be open to some evidence of a connection...


The Cheat's Theme Song, during the line, "Who's the guy who looks like The Cheat?" A picture of Pikachu goes by.
The Cheat's AIM SN from SBE i she be and SBE marzipan is cheatachu72 (or some numbers), an obvious Pikachu reference.
The Cheat has some Pokemon ties.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:54 am 
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TimMierz wrote:
Tom wrote:
I've never seen anything on The Brothers Chaps that says anything about Pokemon. But I'd still be open to some evidence of a connection...


The Cheat's Theme Song, during the line, "Who's the guy who looks like The Cheat?" A picture of Pikachu goes by.
The Cheat's AIM SN from SBE i she be and SBE marzipan is cheatachu72 (or some numbers), an obvious Pikachu reference.
The Cheat has some Pokemon ties.

Tom wrote:
I've never seen anything on The Brothers Chaps that says anything about Pokemon.

I've seen stuff on H*R.com. I was talking about information on The Brothers Chaps. Like an interview somewhere where they say they play the Pokemon game or something. (And I think I kind of said this because I know their aren't any interviews like that... I might have even been joking, but it's hard to say now.)

But of course, you're right, Tim. Thanks for the reminder.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:32 am 
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socetew wrote:
If you disagree about them, then add a comment underneath the fact, such as "I disagree" or "Please clarify".


This is what I generally do if I think a fun fact is too far-fetched. It's a sound idea.


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 Post subject: Cheat day "MC" The Cheat
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:32 pm 
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Quote:
The name "Mike Control" is apparently a reference to the notion of a "microphone controller", one possible expansion of the abbrevation MC (as in MC Hammer).

I am 98% sure that MC is short for Master of Ceremonies,as in
MC Run (Run DMC)
MC Ren (NWA)
Billy Crystal was the "MC" of the awards show.
Rapers are MC's in the way they perform, that is my they use the term MC IMHO. :coachz:

We need to ask Coach Z, he's down!
Don't forget "DJ" for Disk Jocky, you know, those 12inch black CD's that you can't find a player for..LOL (yes I am being facesious, I mean Vinyl Records).

Anyway, I don't think it's like MC Hammer, becasue it's Master of Cermonies Hammer, or MC Hammer for short.

Anyone concur or disagree?
THanks and great Wiki and forum too....
Don't fade me.... :coachz:

Coach Z, CoachZ...one two, one two...Where my lazers at......


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