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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:25 pm 
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Which Jack Chick tract do you find the most profoundly hilarious/ignorant/etc.? I got a real kick out of the Buddhism one (which is how I found out about Jack Chick; it was the subject of a post in a LiveJournal community about Buddhism and we all got a laugh out of it).

Just to be clear, I don't want to stomp on anybody's beliefs, unless you believe what this guy says. He's a nut. Period. :)

Just for fun, I decided to enumerate the more obvious flaws in his understanding of Buddhism:
* A great many Buddhists do not believe in reincarnation.
* Just how many Buddhist millionaires are there?
* Buddhism does not have any great focus on worldly deeds.
* An enlightened Buddhist is not likely to express great annoyance at somebody who wishes to convert him. That annoyance is a flaw of the individual, not his religion!
* Since when were Buddhists violent? A few are, certainly, but the religion as a whole is almost pacifisitic.
* Buddhists do not "pray to Buddha" or any of that nonsense. The Buddha is not an idol.

He did get a tiny number of things right, for instance we do not "believe in sin". Wait, that's about the only thing he got right. Never mind. ;)

- Kef


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:31 pm 
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I love that guy.

He scared the crap outta me when I was a kid; it was the one where the guy chokes on his alcoholic drink while the caption is "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow you die" Is that even from the Bible?

Anyway, the guy goes to hell and is very thirsty the whole time, and the devil mocks him and tells him that he had ample time to repent. When he was alive.

Scared me, man.

Also there is another one where the devil dresses up as a guy that talks a guy out of going to church and then he dies and goes to hell.

A lot about hell in those comics. I believe Mr. Chick thought most people were going there, even Catholics.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:36 pm 
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He hates (oh, I'm sorry, "God" hates) Catholicism with a passion.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:43 pm 
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InterruptorJones wrote:
Scientology in your top 10? Ouch.

Yeah, one of the reasons I tried it the second way.

I sure hope the two of us don't sound like "suppressive persons".


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:26 pm 
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1. Secular Humanism (100%)

2. Theravada Buddhism (96%)

3. Unitarian Universalism (96%)

4. Neo-Pagan (87%)

5. Liberal Quakers (84%)

6. Non-theist (79%)

7. Mainline - Liberal Christian Protestants (72%)

8. Reform Judaism (66%)

9. Mahayana Buddhism (65%)

10. New Age (65%)

Secular humanist. I suppose that's pretty much me. There's Buddhism at number 2, as well; interesting, since that's a religion I considered a while back.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:35 pm 
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Actually, for how silly the survey seems, it is surprisingly accurate.

Can religious differences only boil down to twenty questions?


"How interesting! How Bizarre!" --The Royal Tenenbaums


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:31 pm 
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JoeyDay Wrote:
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"What gives you the impression that Christianity demands a blind faith?"


My frend's brother preaches to me and says stuff like "it's all about blind faith" don't lynch me that's what I grew up with

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:56 pm 
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Sounds like a guy who's afraid to have his beliefs questioned.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:37 am 
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Belief-O-Matic? That doesn't even sound right.

I accidentally closed the browser before copying my results, but it was 100% Mainline/Conservative (fits an LCMS Lutheran well), 97% Quaker. I forgot the rest.

I found some of the questions didn't really quite fit what I believe on certain questions. For example, I believe in the Sacraments, but I don't believe that human efforts (religious behavior or morality) count for salvation (only God's love can accomplish that). I also think that the Church should do a better job of showing mercy and compassion toward people, even those we disagree with. In some cases the quiz phrased issues in terms of black and white, but did not allow for the application of grace (acceptance, love) toward people who find themselves in trouble.

Rational faith:

I find my faith entirely reasonable. In my life, I have had opportunities to consider a number of "fundamental" issues and draw my own conclusions. It's just that those conclusions led me back to orthodox Christianity.

As IJ (or what it Kef?) said, Proof and Evidence are two different things. Even Christians cannot PROVE their faith, but we can look at EVIDENCE for it.

I will also point out that my faith does not necessarily answer all the questions people have in life. It seems that God only gave us a finite number of answers, and in some cases, even more questions than answers. But I do believe that Jesus Christ, true God and true Man, laid down His life for all of us. But I try to be gentle with those who do not yet understand this. The chaplaincy training I'm in right now has really helped me to grow in that.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:50 am 
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I do not think that the Church's voice is best heard in the political arena (doesn't mean the Church should remain silent, though).

Let's take the example of abortion. There are some who are adamantly pro-choice, who believe the mother's rights are absolute. There are some who are pro-life and believe that abortion is essentially the destruction of human life (regardless of method). But what about the women who are pregnant and end up facing that choice? Did you know that 58% of all pregnant teenagers feel pressured by their families and/or boyfriends and are not even able to make that difficult decision for themselves? Can you honestly expect a teenage girl who find herself in trouble to make the best choice at the time (regardless of which you think is right)? Most pro-choicers and pro-lifers tend to dwell in the ideal realm (either of life or freedom) and do not live in the harsh reality these women have to face.

The best way for the Church to make its voice heard in this situation is by seeking out those troubled young ladies and say to them, "It's okay. We're here to help you through this."

That's just my 2¢.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:03 am 
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Didymus wrote:
For example, I believe in the Sacraments, but I don't believe that human efforts (religious behavior or morality) count for salvation (only God's love can accomplish that).


I'm always puzzled by this. How, then, do we get God's love? And if we already have it, what's the motivation for doing good? If we must first do something, such as "accept Jesus" (whatever that may entail), well, that feels arbitrary to me. What about people who had never even heard of Jesus? It's easy to throw up your arms here and say "God works in mysterious ways," as I've seen people do, but are we going to do that every time we have more questions than answers? "Man, that's your answer to everything," said Randal Graves (though he was talking to Dante about the Force).

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I also think that the Church should do a better job of showing mercy and compassion toward people, even those we disagree with.


Amen to that. Too often I see people try to press their beliefs on others, failing to understand that others hold their convictions as strongly as they hold their own. I'm not talking about excessive evangelising (though that does get on my nerves) so much as truly despisable things like http://www.godhatesfags.com and the aforementioned Jack Chick tracts. Both are quite funny, but I'm irritated that people really believe such things. Isn't it sinful to twist God's word into whatever meaning is convenient?

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As IJ (or what it Kef?) said, Proof and Evidence are two different things. Even Christians cannot PROVE their faith, but we can look at EVIDENCE for it.


I said it. Are we godless people beginning to look alike? (Just kidding. ;))

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I will also point out that my faith does not necessarily answer all the questions people have in life. It seems that God only gave us a finite number of answers, and in some cases, even more questions than answers.


It seems there will always be more questions than answers, whether or not God is there to have posed them to us. Our very existence is a challenge to logic. Once I saw an animated GIF (I think) where it said "God created the universe. God just exists". Then a razor chops off a couple words, leaving "the universe just exists", referring to the principle of Occam's Razor: the simpler explanation is scientifically preferred (but note that many scientists do believe in God, although a high proportion of scientists are atheists). But whichever the case is, it's still problematic. How does something "just exist"? You don't get something from nothing. It makes no sense to me. Yet we're obviously here, so something must "just exist". I like to call this idea "the paradox of our existence".

Quote:
But I do believe that Jesus Christ, true God and true Man, laid down His life for all of us. But I try to be gentle with those who do not yet understand this. The chaplaincy training I'm in right now has really helped me to grow in that.


Hmmm...I don't think of myself as not understanding, however much Christianity confuses me at times. But whatever. ;)

- Kef


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:23 am 
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Southern Baptist all my life! My dad (a music minister) used to be catholic, but his parents switched over to Baptist when he was 11, according to him, and my mom (a teacher) taught at many catcholic schools, so I do have a bit of a catholic background as well.

I miss the days of hangin around the church, messin with my dad's computer and hangin in my mom's classroom messing with HER computer. But at least I don't get in trouble for breaking computers anymore...

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:36 am 
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I can't stand that "godhatesfags" guy. Guys like him give us a bad name.

As for God's love: the motivation for doing good is not to GAIN God's love but to SHOW it to others.

Occam's Razor works great in the ideal realm, but not so great in real life. Life by it's very nature is complicated and cannot be boiled down to a simple this or that.

I hate catch phrases and platitudes, too. Most of the time, they are just a way of avoiding complex issues rather than trying to address the needs of people who face them.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:41 am 
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Shwooshoman:

I have a rather diverse background, too. Raised Southern Baptist, somewhat exposed to Pentecostalism, attended a Church of Christ college, studied Roman Catholic theologians (esp. Thomas Aquinas), and ended up Lutheran (Missouri Synod).

If you ever get a chance to visit an LCMS church, I think you'd find it a neat combination of Baptist and Catholic elements. Not that I'm trying to convince you to convert or anything.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:43 am 
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Boy are you going to hear it from the admins Didymus. Yah you know what I'm talking about :O . Shame on you ;) . I'm not one to judge but people can beleve whatever they want if they are homophobic let them be and then laugh when they make a total crapface of themselves.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:43 am 
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I attend a United Methodist Church.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:51 am 
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Prof:

I was only responding to Kef's comments. And the admins haven't given me any trouble for discussing homosexual issues before. And that discussion went way deeper than this.

As for my own faith, I like to consider myself an open-hearted conservative.

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 Post subject: There's something about Merry
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:45 am 
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lumberjack vegetable wrote:
the caption is "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow you die" Is that even from the Bible?

Yeah: Luke 12:19 and 1 Corinthians 15:32 directly and referred to in Exodus 32:6, Judges 9:27, 1 Samuel 30:16, 2 Samuel 11:11, 1 Kings 1:25, Isaiah 22:13, Matthew 24:38, and 1 Corinthians 10:7 indirectly, all referring to people indulging ignorant or apathetic to judgement. Note Nehemiah 8:12 and Matthew 11:18-19, where it's proper. The first time someone told me "go to chick.com for a good laugh" I was really hesitant. But it was good for a laugh. The only thing the misguided and obviously angry guy has going for him is that he's trying his hardest to do what he thinks is right, and he's sincere. Does that matter at all? Maybe, maybe not.

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 Post subject: -
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:34 am 
I'm a very strong Christian, joining this thread late. I:

-Attend a nondenominational church, but feel leanings towards Baptist
-Listen to Christian music (although not exclusively, my favorite band is TMBG, although they're not Christian)
-Play the Christian card game Redemption
-Love God and Jesus intensely
-Read and believe the Bible, taking a very literal stance
-Look forward to Jesus' second coming
-Attended a Catholic high school, even though I'm Protestant

I took that "Belief-O-Matic" quiz, and got:
1. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (100%)
2. Seventh Day Adventist (87%)
3. Orthodox Quaker (86%)
4. Eastern Orthodox (80%)
5. Roman Catholic (80%)
I didn't like the quiz (even though I agree with the top placing) since many questions had multiple answers I thought were right or no answers I thought were right.

As for whoever asked about what happens to those who never heard about Jesus? Well, after Christ's second coming there will be witnesses sent by God to help those who never knew of the way. It's a kind of second chance.

Homosexuality is, I believe, wrong. I do not believe that people should completely shun homosexuals. People should instead try to point out why it is wrong, rather than just shouting, "HEATHEN!" and not trying to accept the person as a person.

God hides a lot of knowledge from us, not because he wants to play games with our minds, but because our feeble human brains cannot handle it. He created humans not as mindless drones, but as the only creatures capable of making a distinct choice toward God, making their praise to him more meaningful. We cannot always know why there is suffering, why people die, or why entropy is such. That is beyond our control, and only God knows.

Jesus loves every single person, and has a distinct plan for each one's life. However, the love has to have a two-way flow. He gives each person many chances to accept him during his or her lifetime. He is so merciful that even the worst people, those most against him, can turn around entirely (see: Paul). If they refuse to accept, they remain lost and will be eternally separated from him.

One thing that turns so many people away from Christianity/Catholicism is the number of people who claim to be part of it but simply do not follow the most basic teachings. In fact, my girlfriend used to be Catholic but abandoned it because she disagreed with Catholic leaders' actions. Satan has planted seeds in even the most involved of Christians, and is trying to do all he can before his captivity to turn people away from God.

Quote:
How does something "just exist"? You don't get something from nothing. It makes no sense to me. Yet we're obviously here, so something must "just exist".

God is all-powerful. He works in more dimensions than we feeble humans can comprehend. Another thing God withholds from us.

Does God hate Catholicism? No! Any who believe in Jesus Christ as God's true, holy son and incarnation and who worship him and live for him will be saved and eternally rewarded. While there are many Catholic practices I disagree with, true Catholics are Christians all the same and will receive the same as Protestants. Unfortunately, Catholic rituals, practices, and overall non-participative stance leaves many professing Catholics to not feel much pull at all, and don't care much about Christ at all.

Jack Chick... he's a fundamentalist alright. He condemns anyone whose every belief doesn't coincide exactly with his. That is, everyone. While some of his tracts are useful tools, many are pointless condemnations.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:44 am 
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Hey, you people are the coolest.

Thanks to everyone for being so honest and open to everyone else in their beliefs.

Keep the communication flowing.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:58 am 
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Regarding the posts:

Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
Boy are you going to hear it from the admins Didymus. Yah you know what I'm talking about :O . Shame on you ;) . I'm not one to judge but people can beleve whatever they want if they are homophobic let them be and then laugh when they make a total crapface of themselves.

and

Didymus wrote:
Prof:

I was only responding to Kef's comments. And the admins haven't given me any trouble for discussing homosexual issues before. And that discussion went way deeper than this.

As for my own faith, I like to consider myself an open-hearted conservative.

I believe Prof. Tor Coolguy is refering to this:

Didymus wrote:
I can't stand that "godhatesfags" guy. Guys like him give us a bad name.

That comment does not break any of the forum rules. Nor do any other of Didymus's comments.

Carry on.


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 Post subject: Re: -
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:17 am 
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Tim Mierz wrote:
Homosexuality is, I believe, wrong. I do not believe that people should completely shun homosexuals. People should instead try to point out why it is wrong, rather than just shouting, "HEATHEN!" and not trying to accept the person as a person.


While I do not mind that you hold such beliefs, I'm curious as to why you think it's wrong. Myself I don't find homosexual behavior unnatural, nor do I find it against the law of God. Also, what are your feelings on the Constitutional amendment Bush proposes? (My own two cents: keep that dreck out of the Constitution. It makes a mockery of the first amendment.)

Moreover, I think you would find it difficult to explain why it is "wrong" to somebody (such as myself) who approaches such matters in an entirely different manner. You could quote chapter and verse (and I could in turn attempt refutations), but as I do not believe in God in the first place, what then?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:45 am 
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I know how it's pointless to use something as evidence for itself. It's like writing, "I am the president. This last sentence was true." That in itself is meaningless. Quoting the Bible to someone who doesn't believe it won't get anywhere.

However, the man-woman pairing is evident through nature. It's how the human race expands. It's a built-in drive. It's how we're constructed. Anything else is going against his will. Just as intelligent design is evident in the entire universe, heterosexual pairing is evident. It may be nearing 2:00 in the morning for me, but I don't see how that reason can be refuted.

And I know really nothing about politics. If you told me what the Constitutional amendment would entail, I would comment. As for now, I'll say nothing about it.

What about homosexual behavior do you find natural? I see nothing but unnatural twistedness in the whole thing. Then again, I know very few gays, and the ones I know I don't know well, so I can't comment too much on them personally. I just think the whole premise is anti-Christ.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:33 am 
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I can certainly argue with the concept that it is unnatural, although I can see how one may arrive at that conclusion. However, bonobos, whip-tailed lizards, penguins, and other animals commonly engage in definite homosexual behavior, both in captivity and otherwise. Less commonly, it occurs, to my knowledge, in a great many species. Do they, too, stray from the will of God? Of course it could be argued that they're not human, but why would they be allowed and we not be?

As for the species propagation argument, I feel that to be irrelevant because our place in the world is, for the time being, secure. Some outside force might destroy us, or we might yet destroy ourselves, but having greater numbers would do little to help that. We need to reproduce to survive, but survive we will whether some tiny percentage of us is homosexual or not. And since we will survive in either case, I don't see a problem.

By the way, the proposed Constitutional amendment (which I'm sure will go nowhere, but much is being made of it), which purports to "defend" marriage, defines marriage to be only between a man and a woman, effectively putting a ban on marriage between same-sex couples in the Constitution. I believe this extends to similar concepts such as "civil unions". I personally think, however one thinks of such issues, they should not be set in the Constitution. We already put a ban in the Constitution before -- the Prohibition -- and it became an embarrassment to everybody.

- Kef


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:07 am 
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furrykef wrote:
Just to be clear, I don't want to stomp on anybody's beliefs, unless you believe what this guy says. He's a nut. Period. :)


Thank you so much for introducing me to this site. After making my last post I read a few of these, and they're frankly hilarious. Yes, he is a nut.

lumberjack vegetable wrote:
Can religious differences only boil down to twenty questions?


I think fewer. Most beliefs are essentially very simple; I'm sure my beliefs can be summed up by making twenty statements.

TimMierz wrote:
However, the man-woman pairing is evident through nature. It's how the human race expands. It's a built-in drive. It's how we're constructed. Anything else is going against his will. Just as intelligent design is evident in the entire universe, heterosexual pairing is evident. It may be nearing 2:00 in the morning for me, but I don't see how that reason can be refuted.


Yes, maybe so, but how is it wrong, exactly? If they're not doing anyone else any harm, how is it morally condemnable? And if homosexual love goes against God's will, why did God create homosexuals? Is it because he wanted to deprive certain people of making love without being condemned?

TimMierz wrote:
What about homosexual behavior do you find natural?


Well, if (as Kef said) penguins and monkeys do it, we can only assume that it is natural in some aspects. And even if it isn't natural, so what? The Internet isn't by any means "natural", and you seem to be using that without moral dilemma.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:48 am 
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Homosexuality has been around for hundreds of years now and lately there have been reports of gay garaffes (I got this form a very relyable source,Time mag.) so there is nothing that is unnatural about it (if anmials do it and they are the high point of natural then *ding* it must be ok for people to do it). I'm not taking this stance because anyone in my family or anyone of my friends is homosexual I just beleve that if it happens naturally it can't be a mistake. It's not like these people were forced on each other it had something to do with the chemicals of the brain and how they differ form a stright person.
On the subject how that's looked at in my religion is that as long as you are happy then you are still in the club(Homosexual,Phyisically retarted,mentally retarted,badly injured). I really like how things are done in my church because there is a lot of singing and every last friday of the month is a play it was a lot easier to stay awake because all it was before I found the new church was the priest reading from the bible for 1 1/2 hours and that was extreamly boring in my POV. I also like my church because they arn't scared to deal with the problems facing inner city and suburb youth these days but sadly most of the problems can't be posted on the forum so I won't elaborate.

These are my opinions but you are welcome to them

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:15 pm 
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Ummm, deleted. Ignore this.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:52 pm 
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The funny thing about that is, our two systems of logic are completely reversed. Your logic states that the Bible is true; the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong; therefore, homosexuality is wrong. My logic is that the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong; homosexuality is not wrong; therefore, the Bible is false. Your logic seems spurious to me; if you are only assuming something on the grounds that the Bible says so and have no reason to assume that the Bible is telling the truth... well, no offence, but it seems that you haven't formulated your own opinion.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:30 pm 
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Uh Oh, here we go.

It's funny that this is the only issue that really divides this community, and we bring ourselves to it, almost intinctively.

I agree with Upsilon's last post. I have found that what he is talking about -- indiv's arguing the Bible as absolute truth -- happens a lot in political arguments.

It is downright scary, because for us as a society to think that we have found "the ultimate system to follow" is counter productive. The law should always be improving on itself based on the experiences, both good and bad, that people are having as a result of the laws being in place. It does not have to adhere to the Koran, Bhaghvad Gita, or Bible, nor should it concern itself with it at all.

I think it is natural to want to glean morality laws from our basic religious beliefs, but I feel it is a bad idea to do this based on history.

As far as homosexual behavior being natural, I don't think it's any of my business what you and your honey do in the bedroom. That's probably why you close the shutters, hmmm? Because people's sex lives are private things? Gay men aren't asking you into their bedroom, they don't want you there. Lesbians, too, for that matter.

I think a great deal of this stems from some grotesque fantasy that people have about the idea of "gay." If all one's info about gays comes only from the media (the internet especially) one really don't know gays. Once you get to know a person, they cease to frighten you.


Found that Chick Tract: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0003/0003_01.asp

My favorite part is when he knocks the Nice Guy into the street. Why are that blond kid and that weirdo friends anyway? What sort of universe is that?

"What a drag!"

Oh and the usual disclaimer: Hope I didn't offend, yad yad yad.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:47 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:40 pm
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Location: Joke, PA
I hate to delabor the point, but this tract is especially funny:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0058/0058_01.asp

This is the first time I've seen this site! I'm having a blast!

The devil on a murderous rampage? Just what was Jack T Chick trying to accomplish with that first half? Or the druids carrying away a human sacrifice? Yikes! Again I say, Yikes!

A Real Question: Has that ever worked for any of you, I mean, rebuking the devil the the name of God?

How about that line,

"Unfortunately, he'll get most of them."

Do most Christians believe that? That most people will "fry in hell" as Jack Chick says? And in that case, why DON'T you force me to be a Christian so I won't spend eternity in hell? I mean, aren't I worth it? Hell sure looks like a terrible terrible terrible place!

I mean, Mr. Chick seems to think so!

I was just kidding, don't force me to become a Christian.


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