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 Post subject: Saying 'I told you so.' from the grave.
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 3:38 am 
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I was wondering...

Even though I believe entirely there is God in Heaven, so what if we're wrong. All the people arguing that it's science or something, you wont be laughing at us from the grave. You'll be dead.

Plus, why try to prove us wrong? To save us from the science energy from killing us? I guess it's just human nature to argue, and that includes everyone. Even Christians. (Added to make sure no one thinks I hate non-Christians.) (Really, not trying to make evil at anyone. Just stating a thought.)

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 4:09 am 
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I believe that all people have the right to believe as they wish to believe. Beliefs don't hurt--only when people act violently towards others as a result of beliefs. Be careful not to turn this into Pascal's Wager, though, as it seems possible to take that path from your initial post...

But to play Devil's Advocate a bit...morality has changed and evolved as we've learned more and more about the universe in which we live through science. Humans seem to have a tendency to make ourselves more important than we really are. We like to believe that the whole universe revolves around us and us alone, that some being akin to our own likeness made everything exclusively for us, and wants to be there to hold our hand every step of the way in our limited yet complicated lives. But science shoots down these precepts of self-importance and personal grandeur time and time again...when we got rid of geocentrism...with the rise of the Evolution and Big Bang theories...with the increasing probability of life elsewhere in the universe...with our physical location in the universe...and perhaps most recently, with the concept that the origin of life itself is a mere byproduct of the laws of physics seeking a way to expend the energy put out from the sun.

More than this, however, I think that the Atheists that try to disprove Christianity don't do so out of malice, but out of frustration from seeing people around them allegedly "not thinking"...which often means "not thinking like I think." Alas, how quickly the judged become the judgers, and how soon we fall prey to the very vices against which we preach.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 5:01 am 
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The point of stating what you believe is not about who is right and who is wrong. It's all about stating your "truth" and speaking up for what you believe in. People who argue that there is no God aren't doing so to laugh at religion in the end, they're arguing for what they believe in.

You could apply the same argument you've made to any religion and belief as well as atheism and a lack of God, really. Any argument between religions as well as the one you've made here.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 5:14 am 
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You know, the thing that sucks is that if there is a god, you're more than likely going to hell. But if there isnt, then you're gonna be rotting in the ground thinking "Man, what the hell did I get myself into?"

so:
God=Great chance of going to hell due to high standards

No God= Rotting in the ground being eaten by worms and uncomfortable padding in the coffin.

Either way, we're going to hell.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 5:19 am 
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Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
You know, the thing that sucks is that if there is a god, you're more than likely going to hell. But if there isnt, then you're gonna be rotting in the ground thinking "Man, what the hell did I get myself into?"

so:
God=Great chance of going to hell due to high standards

No God= Rotting in the ground being eaten by worms and uncomfortable padding in the coffin.

Either way, we're going to hell.


Fallacy of False Dilemma. There COULD be a God that doesn't have the standards you're presenting.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 5:43 am 
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He's got a point, though. There are so many religions out there, so if there is a god, chances are it's a god of a religion you don't belive in, no matter wich religion you belive in, or even a religion that does not exist yet or has been forgotten. Most people would say "I know my religion is true because of A, B and C, and I'm not supposed to listen to non-belivers." but the problem is, all religions have arguments like that. Besides, most people just belive in wichever religion they happened to be born into.

As I see it, I could:
A) Spend my entire life trying to find the correct religion, even if there is none.
or
B) Pick a random religion, ignore the other religions, and get on with my life.
or
C) Just ignore all religions and get on with my life. If there is a god or an afterlife, chances are I'd pick the wrong one anyway.


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 6:55 am 
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I don't see why people have to prove their religious points either. I'm an atheist and the only person that can change that is me. An evangelist is going to have a televised debate with some Atheists he selected to prove (without using the faith argument) that God exists. What is this supposed to accomplish? The Christians watching will still be Christians and the Atheists watching will still be Atheists.

If God himself descended from the heavens before me and told me He existed I'd be more ticked than converted.


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 7:29 am 
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You an Duke Nuke have both expressed this attitude. If God were real, and even if he showed you he was real, you'd still not believe in him. This shows a fundamental disdain for truth in general, and frankly, I'm never impressed when I encounter this attitude.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:15 am 
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I didn't say I wouldn't believe in him, it's hard not to believe in something that's standing in front of you. I just wouldn't become a Christian or a Jew or Whatever because I'm not too impressed with the way God is handling things. I didn't vote for him, so why should he be my God?


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:39 am 
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Because he made you. Since you already owe him your very existence, that pretty much gives him the right to claim your allegiance.

And I always find it interesting when people are so critical of God. As if they think they can do better! Ever see that movie Bruce Almighty?

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:31 am 
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People are ignorant.

Some people like to think they're right about things when they're clearly wrong. It bothers me when people say "It's only either this way or this way. Because I'm too lazy to actually research the facts about each situation, I'm just going to pretend I know everything about everything because I'm lazy"

Shut up.

Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
so:
God=Great chance of going to hell due to high standards

No God= Rotting in the ground being eaten by worms and uncomfortable padding in the coffin.

Either way, we're going to hell.


Christianity: Repent and acknowledge christ as your savior.
doesn't seem too high of standards to me

Unless you were talking about a different God. In which case you would need to specify which one. Not everybody in the world is Christian or Athiest, you know.

and if there's no God, there's no hell.
unless you're thinking of some other religion, in which case you should explain yourself oncemore. but I doubt you did.

Either way, You're ignorant.
GTFO

DukeNuke wrote:
As I see it, I could:
A) Spend my entire life trying to find the correct religion, even if there is none.
or
B) Pick a random religion, ignore the other religions, and get on with my life.
or
C) Just ignore all religions and get on with my life. If there is a god or an afterlife, chances are I'd pick the wrong one anyway.


Religion isn't right or wrong. No two people are the same. this holds true about beliefs as well. Two people might label themselves the same religiously, but it comes down to your beliefs in your heart. Don't act like you know anything about religion, because you seem to know nothing about any of them.

You're ignorant.
GTFO


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:24 am 
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Did he sell eggs? wrote:
Plus, why try to prove us wrong? To save us from the science energy from killing us? I guess it's just human nature to argue, and that includes everyone.


Eggs, not everyone who questions religion does so simply to be argumentative. I think Thomas Jefferson said it best: "Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."* Some are content to do and to believe as they are told, and that's fine for them. It isn't fine for some of us, though.

PieMax wrote:
People are ignorant.
Shut up.
Either way, You're ignorant.
GTFO
You're ignorant.
GTFO


OK, Bill O'Reilly, what did you do with PieMax?

Mike

* Some of you might require clarification on that quote. No, Jefferson wasn't trying to tell God how to be. He was making a logical inference on the nature of God. Galileo made a similar point when he said, “I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.”

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 2:22 pm 
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Christianity: Repent and acknowledge christ as your savior.
doesn't seem too high of standards to me

I don't know, that "repent" part seems awfully hard for people these days.

If your intent is to challenge Cola's apparent belief that God expects us to approach him on the basis of Law (i.e., moral perfectionism), then I fully agree. The Law always accuses; it shows us our weakness and utter dependence upon God's mercy and forgiveness. Of itself, moral perfectionism cannot save us

However, I tend to dislike all forms of "Gospel reductionism", especially those espoused by modern "evangelicalism" because it does not encourage either sound teaching or Christian living, both of which are necessary for God's people as they conduct their lives on earth. It has produced a generation of Christians who are perfectly comfortable with living in their sins, instead of diligently seeking to turn to God for forgiveness and cleansing. People take God's mercy for granted; they take God for granted. They don't confess their sins; they revel in them. They speak of "having a personal relationship" with him, when what they really have is a broken relationship based on betrayal, in which they have scandalous adulterous affairs against him at every turn. For such people, the Law still stands: God will not be mocked, and he will not continue to tolerate unrepentance among those who claim to be his people.

So, no, the Way of the Cross is never easy. Beginning on that Way may seem easy, but staying on it is hard; it's a battle that the Christian must fight every day if he wishes to remain a Christian (Ephesians 6:10-20). It is why "Narrow is the way to eternal life and few find it, but wide is the path to destruction."

Does God demand moral perfection? Not the kind Cola is speaking of, no. Does he demand his people follow him, no matter what the cost? Absolutely. Must you lose hope on account of failure? That depends on whether you wish to continue following or not. Forgiveness and cleansing are always freely available to those who recognize their need, but lost to those who cease to care. The way of the Cross is not moral perfectionism, but neither is it easy. The Way of the Cross is nothing short of putting ourselves to death DAILY so that we might have life in Christ. It is denying ourselves - on one hand, denying our self-reliance and our own power, and on the other, denying our immoral desires - and following Christ. The Way of the Cross is not moral perfectionism, but neither is it complacency and apathy, which seems to be the norm of the 21st century church.

And one more thing: as a moderator, I have to remind you that "GTFO" generally considered an unacceptable response to someone else's beliefs. The same goes for ad hominem. You may challenge their beliefs, but open displays of disrespect are not tolerated here.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 2:31 pm 
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PieMax wrote:
Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
so:
God=Great chance of going to hell due to high standards

No God= Rotting in the ground being eaten by worms and uncomfortable padding in the coffin.

Either way, we're going to hell.


Christianity: Repent and acknowledge christ as your savior.
doesn't seem too high of standards to me

Unless you were talking about a different God. In which case you would need to specify which one. Not everybody in the world is Christian or Athiest, you know.

and if there's no God, there's no hell.
unless you're thinking of some other religion, in which case you should explain yourself oncemore. but I doubt you did.

Either way, You're ignorant.
GTFO

So then, if I went out and killed a man, and then I went to church, confessed, and repented, would I be saved?

If I slept with my neighbours wife, went to church, confessed, repented, would I be saved?

If I go out and say "God damn it", go to church and confess and repent, would I be saved?

If I stole $50,000 from a bank, went to church, confess and repent, would I be saved?

If by what you say is true, then a Mass murderer can confess his sins to the minister two minutes before they inject him, and he would be saved. From what you say, if it is true, then if everyone in teh world were to go to church and confess, we'd all be going to heaven? If God is so forgiving, then why is there a Hell in the first place? Is it there for show? Is it there so we can fear it but not actually go to it? How do we know its there? Fact is, we don't. It all depends on how we feel about it. If its right, you're right, but you can't prove it to everyone else because you'd be dead. If its wrong, then you're wrong, but you can't prove that you're wrong because you'd be dead.
Quote:
Religion isn't right or wrong. No two people are the same. this holds true about beliefs as well. Two people might label themselves the same religiously, but it comes down to your beliefs in your heart. Don't act like you know anything about religion, because you seem to know nothing about any of them.

So then I guess the term "religion" only means Christianity in this argument?
Unless you were talking about a different religion. In which case you would need to specify which one. Not everybody in the world is Christian or Athiest, you know.

The way I see it, arguments like this are gonna go the way of "argumentum ad ignorantiam." None of us/noone knows everything from both positions, know enough from a scientific and Faith point of view, or truly know enough about god/a god/any god to make a solid argument.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 2:41 pm 
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If by what you say is true, then a Mass murderer can confess his sins to the minister two minutes before they inject him, and he would be saved. From what you say, if it is true, then if everyone in teh world were to go to church and confess, we'd all be going to heaven?

Why not? King David committed adultery and murder, and yet, when confronted with the reality of his sins, confessed them and found forgiveness (Psalm 51). And Saul of Tarsus, a man who persecuted, imprisoned, tortured, and even killed Christians, was confronted with his sins and found forgiveness and mercy (Acts 9), and became St. Paul the Apostle. I suggest reading the citations I post here, because you'll see this was not an easy process for either man: to be confronted, to have their private little worlds shattered by the condemnation of their sins. And yet, in both cases, forgiveness and cleansing were granted.

Quote:
If I slept with my neighbours wife, went to church, confessed, repented, would I be saved?

If I go out and say "God damn it", go to church and confess and repent, would I be saved?

If I stole $50,000 from a bank, went to church, confess and repent, would I be saved?

Bear in mind, Cola, that "repent" is not mere arbitrary words, but a renunciation. It is not the mere acknowledgment of a deed, but open confession of the guilt that it bears. A man might sleep with his neighbor's wife, and find forgiveness, but not if he continues to see her every night. A man might curse God and find forgiveness, but not if he continues to abuse God's name and treat is as something filthy. A man might steal and find forgiveness, but not if he keeps the money he stole. If a man confesses, "I killed a man last night. I repent," but means little other than, "God, just overlook that," then he will find he still bears the guilt. But, if, like David, the man pours out his soul before the cross, surrendering himself in utter submission before the mercy of God, that is a different matter. And I do not believe such a person goes away unchanged.

Quote:
If God is so forgiving, then why is there a Hell in the first place? Is it there for show? Is it there so we can fear it but not actually go to it? How do we know its there?

It's there because there are some people who do not accept that forgiveness and cleansing. There are those who feel like they don't really need God's forgiveness. Either they defy his Law, or take his grace for granted while they continue to live in their sins, or they think they can rely on their own powers and do not seek forgiveness at all. The mercy and grace are there for them; but like a gift that is never opened, but is tossed in the attic and forgotten about, or into the trash can, it does them no good.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:52 pm 
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Didymus wrote:
Because he made you. Since you already owe him your very existence, that pretty much gives him the right to claim your allegiance.

And I always find it interesting when people are so critical of God. As if they think they can do better! Ever see that movie Bruce Almighty?


I had no say in being created and it wasn't really fair that He didn't consult me before creating me.

I'm pretty sure if I came into existence as an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful being I'd be pretty good at what I do.


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:06 pm 
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You are correct: you had no say in whether or not you were created. Are you telling me you'd prefer you weren't? But you're still operating under a false assumption: that the Creator of the universe is under some sort of obligation to consult you before he does anything, when the reality is, without his action on your behalf, there wouldn't even be a you to consult.

And if you had existed as an almighty, all-knowing being, I'd have no doubt you might be capable of running creation (key word: Might). But you're not. Which pretty much means that, as it stands presently, you are in no position to judge God.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:43 pm 
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Didymus wrote:
Quote:
Christianity: Repent and acknowledge christ as your savior.
doesn't seem too high of standards to me

I don't know, that "repent" part seems awfully hard for people these days.


It's easier than being publicly humiliated and killed on a cross.


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:44 pm 
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I don't dispute that at all.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:50 pm 
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Didymus wrote:
You are correct: you had no say in whether or not you were created. Are you telling me you'd prefer you weren't? But you're still operating under a false assumption: that the Creator of the universe is under some sort of obligation to consult you before he does anything, when the reality is, without his action on your behalf, there wouldn't even be a you to consult.

And if you had existed as an almighty, all-knowing being, I'd have no doubt you might be capable of running creation (key word: Might). But you're not. Which pretty much means that, as it stands presently, you are in no position to judge God.


You don't find it hard to believe in a God but find it hard to believe that maybe consciousness doesn't exist before existence?

God isn't perfect either. Take transgendered people for example, sticking a man in a woman's body is not a good idea.

I think we're digressing from the original topic.


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 11:31 pm 
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You don't find it hard to believe in a God but find it hard to believe that maybe consciousness doesn't exist before existence?

Rene DesCartes already demonstrated that in order for there to be a consciousness at all, there must be existence. How can you think, feel, or perceive if you do not exist? There has to be a you in order for you to do those things.

Actually, God is perfect. The world is messed up because we human beings messed it up. Things like transgenderism occur because there is something fundamentally wrong with human beings on account of the fall. Essentially, mankind decided we didn't need God, so God let us go our own way (he is, after all, not without some measure of respect for human freedom), and suffer all the consequences of a fallen world we made for ourselves. But that's another topic for another time.

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 1:56 am 
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Didymus wrote:
Actually, God is perfect.


This may be getting a bit off-topic, but doesn't it say that God is jealous (which is why he requires our worship)? That seems somewhat imperfect.


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 3:01 am 
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You know...to be honest, I don't really believe in a true, completely permanent Hell. I honestly do not believe that God sends people to Hell solely for being of a different religion, or not being religious. Really, I think He meant for us to live our lives and be good people.

Also, I really don't think we're being punished for things Adam and Eve did. It doesn't make sense to me. To me, it's kind of like punishing a guy's son because the guy killed someone.

Don't really have much more to say on this subject.

*dodges tomatos*

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 Post subject: Re: Saying 'I told you so.' from the grave.
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 3:01 am 
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Did he sell eggs? wrote:
I was wondering...

Even though I believe entirely there is God in Heaven, so what if we're wrong. All the people arguing that it's science or something, you wont be laughing at us from the grave. You'll be dead.

Plus, why try to prove us wrong? To save us from the science energy from killing us? I guess it's just human nature to argue, and that includes everyone. Even Christians. (Added to make sure no one thinks I hate non-Christians.) (Really, not trying to make evil at anyone. Just stating a thought.)


The simple answer: Arguing is fun. Winning an argument is even more fun. One of the most satisfying feelings in the world is to be "right." If you can prove that you are right, and the other guy is wrong, you feel good about yourself. Even in an argument where nobody can really "win," such as the nature of God, the argument itself can be a lot of fun.

Personally, I do it to expand myself as a person. Debating a very heated topic like religion really helps me figure out what it is exactly that I believe. Maybe somebody will make a good point it will force me to re-examine my position. Maybe the debate will just reinforce what I already believe. Maybe it can be just a tool to help me with abstract beliefs floating around in my head and put them in some sort of order and make them more palpable to me. I find it extremely useful to organize my thoughts and type them out on a forum like this, get immediate feedback and critism, and figure out where to go from there. But I must admit that in the back of my mind, I'm still always thinking "Maybe I'll convert somebody to the dark side."

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 4:56 am 
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Shippinator Mandy wrote:
You know...to be honest, I don't really believe in a true, completely permanent Hell. I honestly do not believe that God sends people to Hell solely for being of a different religion, or not being religious. Really, I think He meant for us to live our lives and be good people.

That's not quite the way hell works. Hell is a place for those who wanted nothing to do with God, who went their own way and rejected God's only Son, and so God basically sends them away into an existence apart from his presence, and without his grace, such a place can only be hell. But if hell is not a reality, the Christ died for nothing. While the image of a God who does hold people accountable for their crimes is not a popular one today, it is nevertheless the way God revealed himself, and in fact what Jesus himself said will occur. Matthew 25.

Quote:
Also, I really don't think we're being punished for things Adam and Eve did. It doesn't make sense to me. To me, it's kind of like punishing a guy's son because the guy killed someone.

It's not that we're being directly punished for their sins, Mandy. But their sins did have consequences. The world is now broken; it is not the perfect paradise it was created to be. But one of the most devastating consequences of their sin is that now all of us are sinners. Every single human being on this planet - except for one, Christ himself - has been part of the problem, has contributed to the evil that is in this world by sinning themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: Saying 'I told you so.' from the grave.
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 6:20 am 
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Did he sell eggs? wrote:
Even though I believe entirely there is God in Heaven, so what if we're wrong. All the people arguing that it's science or something, you wont be laughing at us from the grave. You'll be dead.


Know whats weird? This Monday, I sat down and really thought about death, God, and an afterlife. The thing is, I honestly want to believe that there is a God. However, after hearing so many religious views, to me it seems like there is a big chance that there is no God. I've thought about reincarnation, but I don't understand how its possible. I've come to realize that...(I got this from Star Trek) that after I die, if there is no God, or afterlife for that matter, then what is the purpose of living? All my memories, achievements, they'll have meant nothing. They would've been pointless. To me, its terrifying, the thought of eternal nothingness. Not existing. Simply ceasing to be after death.

I guess what I'm trying to say is...there better be a God or afterlife of some sort, or we're all in trouble.

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 6:23 am 
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It certainly does present a bleak view of things, doesn't it, Dewy?

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 Post subject: Re: Saying 'I told you so.' from the grave.
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 6:28 am 
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Dewy wrote:
if there is no God, or afterlife for that matter, then what is the purpose of living? All my memories, achievements, they'll have meant nothing. They would've been pointless. To me, its terrifying, the thought of eternal nothingness. Not existing. Simply ceasing to be after death.


If that's all there is, then make it mean something while you are still here. There isn't a moment to waste. The purpose of living is living.

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Last edited by Amorican on Sat May 05, 2007 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 6:28 am 
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Yeah, but sadly, thats my way of thinking.


WOAH SIMULPOSTLOL

Huh. Well, I suppose that's a good way to put it.

I wonder if by the time I'm getting close to death, they'll have proven methods of cryogenic stasis and stuff.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 6:35 am 
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Didymus wrote:
God is perfect.


One of the things about the Bible that bugs me is that there is absolutely no way to come even close to beginning to prove that. Even if we accept the existence of God and take every individual event in the Bible to be true, it doesn't prove a thing about God's "perfection". A deeply flawed creator could still be perfectly capable of doing all those things. We are apparently meant to assume that God is perfect because 1) he said so, and 2) we don't really have much choice.

Moreover, I think "God is perfect" is a meaningless statement from a Christian perspective. For God to be perfect, there has to be a standard by which he could be judged perfect or imperfect. But nobody is in a position to judge God (as we're so often reminded), so he can only be judged by his own standards. Well, of course he's going to be a perfect god by his own standards. ;) So God is perfect because God is perfect. It's a circular argument.

- Kef

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