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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:59 am 
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That was the only online bible that I could find.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:06 am 
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You believe something because that's what a certain translation happened to say? Is it somehow more the word of God than others? And if so, what makes it so?

I know you didn't actually say this, but that's the only conclusion I can really draw. Make me draw a better one. ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:10 am 
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I believe the word of God is all the same.
No matter how it's written.

[Kef, please leave me a private message. Thanks.]


Last edited by fahooglewitz1077 on Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:13 am 
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If I made my own "translation" of the Bible making arbitrary changes, perhaps saying that on the seventh day all men turned into monkeys, would it still be the word of God?

And if not, how are tiny arbitrary changes different from large ones?

- Kef


Last edited by furrykef on Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:16 am 
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Actually, no, because if you compare all the translation they basically say the same thing. So I would not believe your Translation.

Please leave me a Private Message. I am going to bed. It's 10:15pm here.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:23 am 
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Hey - I did the belief-o-matic thing. It was interesting; not really what I expected....and difficult...I've always belived in God and JC as my personal savior, but some of those questions, I was thinking..."Okay...so what DO I believe?"
Your Results:

1. Mainline - Liberal Christian Protestants (100%)

2. Orthodox Quaker (92%)

3. Mainline - Conservative Christian Protestant (85%)

4. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (84%)

5. Liberal Quakers (78%)

6. Eastern Orthodox (73%)

7. Roman Catholic (73%)

8. Bahá'í Faith (71%)

9. Jehovah's Witness (70%)

10. Seventh Day Adventist (67%)

And to think, I was raised Lutheran! I hope Martin is proud...

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:53 am 
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JoeyDay wrote:
Tim Mierz wrote:
As for whoever asked about what happens to those who never heard about Jesus? Well, after Christ's second coming there will be witnesses sent by God to help those who never knew of the way. It's a kind of second chance.

Tim, can you help me understand what you mean here? I've never heard this doctrine taught in a Christian church, and I'm wondering if you can back it up with any scriptures, or if this is simply your opinion. It's a comforting doctrine, to be sure, but are you accepting it because it's comforting, or because you've seen that it is biblical?


I believe it because it is Biblical. Here's a quote (with references) from a favorite book of mine, "Bruce & Stan's Guide to the End of the World" (a must-read for Christians and non-Christians alike:

(under "The First Half of the Tribulation - The Antichrist is a Great Imposter")
Quote:
God appoints two people to be His special witnesses to the Jews in Jerusalem and in Israel. They preach about God's salvation, which is available only through belief in Jesus Christ. God supernaturally empowers these 'two witnesses' to perform miracles which bring credibility to their claims (Revelation 11:3-6).


Revelation 11:3-6; New International Version
Quote:
(3) And I [God] will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth. (4) These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. (5) If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. (6) These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.


This is directly after the rapture, after all of Christ's followers are raised up with him to heaven (and will come back to fight with God's armies in the battle of Armageddon; I'll talk more about Armageddon later). Everyone will look at each other after all of God's people are completely gone. Tons of explanations, all absurd or just plain wrong, will come up, including UFO abduction and instant death from some other "deity", after sudden anger with these so-called disobeyers of the "true God". Soon, after all this commotion goes from horrible to worse, a peacemaker from Europe or the Middle East will seem to have a solution to everything and everything will seem harmonious. He will negotiate a peace treaty with the Palestinians and Jews, favoring the Jews, and a seven-year treaty will be established. This person becomes more and more popular, and thus more powerful. Everyone loves him. He's all-around Mr. Awesome. (Right now is around the time the two witnesses mentioned above start doing their stuff.) Suddenly, half-way through the treaty, this leader breaks the treaty. He severly persecutes the Jews. He drops his whole charade of debonair suaveness. He reveals his true nature as the Antichrist. People will rise up against him, and kill him. And then, Satan uses his power to resurrect the Antichrist, counterfeiting Jesus Christ's own. He gains more and more power, and soon people start worshipping him. Demonic miracles and eventually the "mark of the beast" soon are the foundation of a new, antiChristian religion worshipping the Antichrist. He forms an enormous army, and heads to the east with a 200 million soldier army, to the field of Megiddo, where Armageddon takes place.

From Bruce & Stan's Guide:
Quote:
Armageddon is going to be a battle unlike anything the world has ever known. At the same time, military powers from the four corners of the globe will converge upon Israel to battle for world domination.

As the Antichrist's forces near Israel, the Messiah comes again, but this time not meekly in a manger. He is now the fierce military leader the Jews of around 30 AD wanted. On his side are the angelic army and the Christian saints who have risen up to him. In the final battle, Jesus Christ battles alone against all the evil forces, and will triumph.

Armageddon is not the world exploding or an asteroid smashing into Texas or a big ol' nuclear bomb. It's the final battle, and the earth is not destroyed. Rather, the evil forces are, and the earth will later be restored and refreshed, its capital being the "New Jerusalem".

Phew, lotsa typing. Hope that clarifies my point though :D


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:34 am 
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(3) And I [God] will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth. (4) These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. (5) If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. (6) These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

Double Wow, man. That's some heavy stuff. Water into blood, that's a crazy symbol. Moses, right? The twelve plagues? God visiting twelve plagues upon the enslavors of the Isrealites?

Striking the earth.

Devouring your enemies.

I must say, I just don't understand.

I like when people from the Bible talk about humility. The macho heroes of the Bible kind of honk me off sometimes. Dvaid is always talking about his 'enemies.' He is always so wrapped up in these enemies, who he wants God to kill, so they're out of the way, on his manifest destiny to be King...

Isn't he? Please, help me with this!

And before all that, doesn't God keep telling the people that they don't need a king?

And the people complain and complain, they say that they need a king?

Do you think that a country still needs a king?

I think people thirst for a king. They crave it like coffee in the morning, like the water that the heat sucked out of you earlier. They need a king to tell them that they are protected and there is nothing to worry about.

Your paper on your doorstep six a m on the dot. Lead story: Everything's fine. We have raised the alert to orange. Keep on the lookout for our country. Let's sacrifice the young while they still believe in us. For the better of us all.

No it was he, Saul, hiding among the water jugs. Largest man in the house. Several gasps escaped when he stood up to his full height.

Slew him a lion when he was young. Survived many an arrow.

His mentor turned him away, tried to kill him in the fit of madness. Everyone's allowed a fit of madness now and again, aren't we?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:03 am 
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Yeah, in fact the notes on my study bible compare the two witnesses to Moses (plagues, water to blood) and Elijah (controlling the weather and such). God is starting to show his true power, especially to people that never even knew he existed. They'll certainly know once the witnesses start going about. Hard to ignore someone breathing fire, eh?

About the kings and humility. I've just been reading about the life of David, and he did some not-great things. As in, really bad. It's an incredible reflection on humanity that one of the all-time greats of Biblical times did such horrible things. While pride wasn't one of his main downfalls, there was the famous Bathsheba incident (major sexual weaknesses; also had multiple wives, prohibited by his own laws...), his less-than-good choice in friends and advisors (his main man Joab, in particular, was a real vengeful guy who wanted to basically kill kill kill), his warring spirit (although near the beginning of his live he was extremely meek, he eventually did let some power get to his head and get very territorial)... and this is the flagship hero of the Old Testament. Kinda makes it seem that if God can accept that as one of his greatest servants, what about us? He's certainly got to have the mercy for us! And he does. And that's one of the things that's so cool about Jesus. We could be the worst people ever, but if we sincerely accept His sacrifice as our own and try to live as he wants us to, we get to go to the same heaven that Abraham, David, and every single Christian goes to! Wow, God's so great!

And what about the king? Well, God kept trying to tell the Israelites that he was their king, they didn't need a human one. But they wanted a leader like everyone around them. So he gave them some judges, like Gideon, and Deborah, and Samuel, but they wanted more. A king! Someone to valiantly lead them in battle! Someone to characterize their being in the form of a monarch, a true Israelite... oh, and God's cool too. God decided to show them this wasn't the best idea. He gave them Saul. Talk about insecurity and egomania. Although he had good moments, he was not a great theocratic leader. After David, very few Israelite or Judean kings were good at all. Soon, Israel was in Babylonian captivity and things just looked worse and worse. That's when the Messianical prophecies came, and then Jesus' arrival on earth. But this post was long enough already, so I'll stop now. :D


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:29 am 
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I like long posts.

Religious ideas are ideas that expand, expand, expand.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:33 am 
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I write this to fahooglewitz, as you can see, but I invite all to respond...I feel our little part in the conversation has been ignored lately :P

fahooglewitz1077 wrote:
Actually, no, because if you compare all the translation they basically say the same thing. So I would not believe your Translation.


(By the way, fahooglewitz, I left you a private message, though I didn't know what to put in it... (?) But I have to respond to this here in any case because I feel this point is relevant to more than just our little dispute on homosexuality.)

I believe that I have already shown that different translations do not basically say the same thing. Taking two Greek phrases and merging them into "homosexual", although neither meant such, is as arbitrary a change as "on the seventh day they all became monkeys" -- only much smaller. I do not know what the two phrases do literally mean, and that I will have to research, but I cannot help but think whoever made that translation had an agenda, and if you translate with an agenda and twist the words to meet it, then I think the translation reflects no longer only the word of God.

For an example I better understand, I will quote Leviticus 18:22, which the KJV translates as, "Thou shalt not with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination." (Many other translations are very similar. I would also like to note that most Christians do not follow the code of Leviticus in any form, so why many continue to quote it mystifies me. However, I am providing it mostly as an example.) This seems to be clear, simple, and to the point, and because of this it is quoted countless times. But it isn't so clear or simple. First off, the word "abomination" was, in Hebrew, "toeyvah". This word, in the KJV at least, has been translated as much less alarming words in other places.

Ah, but there's more with this troublesome little passage. This page will have a much more complete summary than I can put here, but this is a part worthy of quoting:

The website wrote:
Unfortunately, there is no consensus on the meaning of this verse. Many people tend to select that interpretation that most closely reinforces their initial beliefs about the Bible and homosexual behavior.


In other words, they decide what it means for themselves, which is well and good, but they write it their way as though it were The Truth, and other people see this and think that it is what God said, and not that it was only one interpretation of what God said. Is that not problematic?

- Kef


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:21 am 
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Three pages in 24 hours? My word...

Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
lemme give you a counterpoint,when the wind isn't there you know it still exisists and you hope for it to come to cool you off, blind faith again.


How is that blind faith? You have reason to assume that the wind exists: you remember it blowing and therefore have the evidence of your memory, just the same as some Christians would use the evidence of the Bible, or the Argument of Design, or whatever.

JoeyDay wrote:
The hard truth is that every one of us stands condemned, and every one of us deserves hell.


But that doesn't make sense. Humans only live for a certain amount of time, so presumably, we can only sin a finite number of times. Why, then, are we all condemned to infinite punishment? Surely no matter how strict God is on these matters, we'd have done our time eventually? Especially since God loves us all so much, and is omnipotent, so there shouldn't really be any need for Hell in the first place?

fahooglewitz1077 wrote:
In response to Upsilion…


Okay, I don't mind if people call my beliefs stupid, but what does offend me is when people can't learn my name. It's Upsilon, with no second I, and I get called Upsilion so often that it's got unbelievably annoying. Bear that in mind, please.

Quote:
…I truly believe that the Bible is True, that Homosexualality is wrong…


On what grounds? Do you have any proper reason to assume that the Bible is complete truth?

Quote:
and CHRISTmas I truly intended only for people who believe.


Christmas has deviated so far from its origins that for most non-believers it's now a purely secular holiday. There's no reason, then, why atheists shouldn't participate; we have as much right to a meaningless celebration as anyone else.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:48 am 
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Upsilon wrote:
Quote:
…I truly believe that the Bible is True, that Homosexualality is wrong…


On what grounds? Do you have any proper reason to assume that the Bible is complete truth?


Dunno about you, Upsilon, but I've never seen anybody get anywhere with that angle. You have to fight on their own turf first. Find something specific in their beliefs which you find flawed, and bring it to their attention, and don't let them try to steer the conversation in another direction. Get to the bottom of the matter. If it proves ineffective, or you discover their reasoning is sound, find some other point. Everybody has holes in their reasoning and understanding that need patching; I'm sure I do. Then work backwards and have them question the whole. If they still accept it, which is of course as legitimate a course of action as any, then at least they've reasoned it out instead of jumping off a cliff in the dark and ending up where they do for no reason.

Er, not that I'm trying to convert anybody to atheism or Buddhism. I invite anybody to do the same for me!

- Kef


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:25 am 
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ok, I don't know how to defend my point other than this does anyone else feel the presence of God when you eather pray for an extended period of time(Joeyday,Agentseethrough,Lumberjack vegetable,any other christian?) or if you talk about god with friends? The bible says that when two or three gather and talk of my name I will be there. So when you that that feeling you know that he is there and when he isn't there you still know he exisits right? BTW the way I learned it the presence of God feels different for everyone.
I'd also like to point out that praying for an extended peroid of time can be like metatiation in that you are doing nothing but praising your God.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:51 am 
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Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
ok, I don't know how to defend my point other than this does anyone else feel the presence of God when you eather pray for an extended period of time(Joeyday,Agentseethrough,Lumberjack vegetable,any other christian?) or if you talk about god with friends? The bible says that when two or three gather and talk of my name I will be there. So when you that that feeling you know that he is there and when he isn't there you still know he exisits right? BTW the way I learned it the presence of God feels different for everyone.


I don't think I've felt such a thing when I was Christian. I have, however, felt many irrational feelings. I'd feel fear for no reason, or once I even went to bed feeling that people were going to die tomorrow. (The following morning was the Space Shuttle Colombia incident. I kid you not. But I do think that was coincidence.) If one can feel things that have nothing to do with reality, I think the presence of God would be no exception. Not to knock on your beliefs of course; just as an amateur scientist I can't help but be a skeptic. You might indeed feel the presence of God, but I don't think it likely, no matter how convincing the feeling is. To put it another way, it's surprisingly easy to find what you're looking for if you look for intangible things.

Quote:
I'd also like to point out that praying for an extended peroid of time can be like metatiation in that you are doing nothing but praising your God.


I don't really see the connection.

- Kef


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:09 pm 
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I f you guys are try to convert me or test my theological beliefs, It's an exercise in futility.

I think we should return this discussion back to topic of this thread, which was : Fruit Flies of the Ryuku Islands....er...um...
Religious Affiliation


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:13 pm 
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We seek neither to test nor convert, but for all of us to better understand each other -- and ourselves.

And this is on topic. Sewiously. ;)

- Kef


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:13 pm 
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Here I will quote my own post.

fahooglewitz1077 wrote:
I apologize to those offended.
I'm kind of in a breakdown due to a Divorce.
Please accept my apology.


I would like to discontinue this discussion.
Let's go back to Religious Affiliation.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:16 pm 
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fahooglewitz1077 wrote:
I f you guys are try to convert me or test my theological beliefs, It's an exercise in futility.

I think we should return this discussion back to topic of this thread, which was : Fruit Flies of the Ryuku Islands....er...um...
Religious Affiliation

Okay, how about we work on your English grammar instead?

And if you want to learn about fruit flies on the Ryukyu Islands I suggest you read some Wikipedia articles.

Now then, if you don't want to participate in this discussion, please don't post in this thread.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:49 pm 
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But kef,I don't mean to sound like an utter JC freak but mabye you were ment to follow the buddha, that's just a theory.

Upsilon said:
Quote:
JoeyDay wrote:
The hard truth is that every one of us stands condemned, and every one of us deserves hell.


But that doesn't make sense. Humans only live for a certain amount of time, so presumably, we can only sin a finite number of times. Why, then, are we all condemned to infinite punishment? Surely no matter how strict God is on these matters, we'd have done our time eventually? Especially since God loves us all so much, and is omnipotent, so there shouldn't really be any need for Hell in the first place?


I agree on that,I mean isn't God supposted to love us like a father? The boss only knows that if he loved people like my father loves people there would be no use for a heven. But that's just my life.

My theory is that if he loves us so much then sometimes he just has to sit back and let things play out,and see if his "children" learned from their mistakes. I think that God didn't create puppets he created a race that can choose to follow him if they want and the people who do get a little extra.

In regard to what I just said I'd like to counter balance it with a quote from my mother "All the major religions are fighting to see who is better and who can get more membership and more world infulance" so if you are any other major religion(I'm half jewish half catholic) I apoligise if I have offended anyone because this is a really trickey subject.

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I have decided I will only comment on this thread.


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Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
But kef,I don't mean to sound like an utter JC freak but mabye you were ment to follow the buddha, that's just a theory.


I'm not sure what you mean. Also I'd like to point out that following the Buddha and following Jesus are not mutually exclusive; while in practice there is little overlap between Buddhism and Christianity, that is not due to any incompatibility between the two. Interestingly enough, the Buddha himself may well have been canonized by the Catholic church as Saint Josaphat.

You see, Buddhism at its core is a philosophy, not a religion. Its two most central principles are the Middle Way, the principle that things should be done in moderation, and nonattachment, that is, not being "attached" to certain things or emotions. For instance, if you are unable to do without Nintendo, or your TMBG CD, or even Homestar Runner, that is an attachment. That is not to say you may not enjoy them! Of course you can and you should. But if, when they are taken away, you suffer, that is not good.

The ideas are all very simple, but it's not easy by any means :)

- Kef


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:52 pm 
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what I mean is that maby JC ment for you to follow the philosophy of the buddha. Or mabye I've been reading wayyyyyy to muck Jack Chick(thay are really funny and scary at the same time)

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I studied Buddhism in School last year. I remember the main principle was like, you should give up your want for material things, or something along those lines. I can see how it's hard.


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fahooglewitz1077 wrote:
I studied Buddhism in School last year. I remember the main principle was like, you should give up your want for material things, or something along those lines. I can see how it's hard.


Sort of. I'm not about to go throwing out all my stuff. But that's because doing so is needless and wasteful. But if all my stuff were to suddenly disappear, then, ideally, it wouldn't matter as long as I could still live.

I have not achieved such a state, nor am I anything close to doing so, but it should come with time.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:05 pm 
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Just curious, do you believe in reincarnation, or not?


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Nope. I don't hold any particular beliefs about life after death. I don't find it useful to speculate on such matters.


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fahooglewitz1077 wrote:
I have decided I will only comment on this thread.


What do you mean?

Fahooglewitz, if you're going to take part in discussions of religions, you have a lot to learn. You came into this discussion thinking you could make your point, stun us all with scripture, and have somehow won some sort of victory for homophobia. You say "It's true because this highly politicized version of the bible that I won't identify says it's true!" You get thoroughly corrected by people who have read several other translations of the bible and point out that the passage you refer to may or may not actually have anything to do with homosexuality. Then you insist that all versions of the bible agree with you, even though it's been pointed out quite thoroughly that your version is at odds with many (most?) others. People persist upon this point, so you backtrack, trying to get kef to move the discussion to PM (which is a silly idea, IMO), and then saying you don't want to have this discussion anymore.

Well, fahooglewitz, you started the discussion. Either you can defend your position with facts, as others have, or you can admit that your position is without footing. But you cannot enter a religious discussion with the assumption that everything you know is right and anything anybody else says to the contrary and expect it to be productive.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:15 pm 
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come on kef,haven't you ever wondered if you were to die at this exact second if you would be screwed or not?

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InterruptorJones wrote:
so you backtrack, trying to get kef to move the discussion to PM (which is a silly idea, IMO)


Actually he didn't. I think he meant that I should send him a PM whenever I respond so that my response to his response won't get lost three pages pack.


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